S8 E96: What Getting Published Feels Like with freelance writer Joliene Adams

Get the show’s transcript

[00:00:00] JA: And it makes me think too of how writing, you know, I think when we sit down to write a piece, we feel like we're creating a singular entity. This is an article, but really, I. All pieces of writing in the travel industry are constantly in conversation with one another. So if we don't offer our voice, then that conversation doesn't happen. Right? And, 

[00:00:18] and that conversation is what helps define, shape, move forward, the travel industry. and so if we, especially if we want to be represented in our voice to be represented, then we have to write and have that conversation. 

[00:00:31] YD: Welcome back to the Travel Media Lab podcast everyone. If you've been interested in learning more about our Intro to Travel journalism program, you want to listen closely today to the experience from one of our real life albums, today on the podcast, we're joined by Joliene Adams, a freelance writer and linguist.

[00:00:50] Based in the Pacific Northwest and our very own travel media lab community member, Joliene finally made time to take her freelance writing goals seriously about a year ago. And as she says herself, she hasn't looked back since. Joliene's biggest writing passion is sharing the stories of. Outstanding local voices and changemakers where she lives and travels.

[00:01:11] And in this episode, we'll discuss the thrill of getting that pitch accepted and discuss one of her upcoming bylines in adventure.com on the intersection of travel and disappearing languages. Joliene finds deep joy in pitching, swinging for the bleachers, supporting English second language writers, and encouraging beginners in freelancers.

[00:01:31] She's lived abroad in Cuba, Bolivia, and Rapanui, but her favorite travel adventure of all time was Doug Mushing in Alaskan Bush with her disabled father. Joliene is also our group travel journalism program students, and a very active and supportive member of the Circle. membership for everyone who wants to get ongoing support in getting started in the travel media industry.

[00:01:54] We are so lucky to have Joliene as part of our community, and her thoughtfulness and support for our other members have been just so wonderful. And it's also been amazing to witness her journey from the time she first took our program to where she is today. In this episode, with digging into some of the fears and hesitations Joliene had before joining our program, how she went about working through those fears, why she believes like I do, that we're not.

[00:02:19] Ever really competing with one another, how being part of our community and going through our program helped her get established in the travel media space and why adding your voice to the conversation happening in the industry is crucial. I absolutely love talking to Joliene, and I hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:02:36] In this episode, Joliene and I are also covering what sets our program apart and how it can help you get your stories published. And today I'm super excited to announce that our six month group travel journalism program is now open for enrollment. It provides a foundation of travel journalism knowledge plus ongoing support.

[00:02:58] Insider, our membership for you to actually apply all of that knowledge and most importantly, stick to it. We will be enrolling until Wednesday, May 31st, and. Please take note. This is the only time this year that we're opening this program up for enrollment. We used to do it twice a year before, but now we're only enrolling once a year.

[00:03:20] So in getting your travel stories published is something you dream about. Don't miss this opportunity. travelmedialab.com/class. To join our wait list because we will only be sending enrollment information to people who join the wait list at this link. All right, now onto this episode with Joliene.

[00:03:40] I hope you enjoy it. 

[00:03:42] Welcome, dear Joliene to the podcast. I am so, so excited to have you on today and to have a full hour, talking about you and your experiences in our community. Uh, you know, I, I love working with you. I love your work and your ideas and everything, and I'm just so excited for you to be on the podcast today.

[00:04:01] Welcome.

[00:04:02] JA: Yeah. Thank you Yulia, and to everybody listening, hello. Thank you for listening in. I'm really grateful to be here.

[00:04:08] YD: Amazing. Amazing. Thank you Joliene and I. Before we start, I wanted to say that I was so excited to see. You take our workshop into action so fast cuz we had a workshop yesterday in the circle, uh, which was pretty fun workshop of, uh, doing, pitch brainstorming exercises and Joliene just turned around and, Submitted a pitch for review right away, which was really awesome, to see.

[00:04:31] So I wanna say thank you for that. That's, that's really cool when I see you guys putting stuff in action so fast that, that always makes me so happy. 

[00:04:38] JA: Yeah. It was a very, generative, practice what we did that day for our pitch brainstorming. So it was, it just got me going.

[00:04:45] YD: Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. I was excited about that too. And I think I, I'll definitely gonna be adding this to our kind of regular programming in the circle. I haven't figured out a way, but maybe I, like I said on the on, on the call that I'm, I'm gonna be like alternating it. On that pitch brainstorming workshop, cuz yeah, it sounded like if you really put intention and effort into it, I feel like you can come out with pretty good amount of ideas and pitches generated.

[00:05:11] So that's really cool. So, you know, this creative career and seeing your name on magazine pages is still, a career path that can seem very much out of reach. For people. So I wonder when or how did you know that this is something that you wanted to do for yourself?

[00:05:30] JA: That's a great question. That has many different ways it can be answered, but the most important thing is that I have always known that I am a writer. It's always been part of who I am, and I've skirted around actually being my own independent. Creative writer for a really long time. I have a grad school degree in comparative literature, another in linguistics.

[00:05:54] I've been doing all of this academic writing and not really honoring that creative part within myself. And last year, in spring 2022, a job I was working at just really changed the way they were doing things in a way that it didn't make sense for me to be there anymore.

[00:06:10] Around that time I met Christine Lozada, a drone pilot extraordinaire, I loved her energy and she really encouraged me to go to the Women in Travel Summit. So I went and that's where I went in your workshop, Yulia. And I just, you know, I heard what you were saying about if I can do it, you can do it. And I just realized this was my moment, right? I have, I was in a major job transition or, you know, leaving a certain job and had the time. And at this, uh, now that I'm a little bit older, also had the resources to be able to work on some of my writing a bit more.

[00:06:44] And once I started doing it, it was, you know, kind of still terrifying and frightening. And, but, um, I found that having our community

[00:06:52] on the circle and seeing Hannah who was really, uh, experiencing success after a couple of years of her own writing, I just thought, wow, that's so cool. She's done this. And so I just, I just started doing it right.

[00:07:06] And once I began doing it, I realized that even though I had to face. many fears and become very resilient against rejection, that it felt so much more freeing to honor that part of who I was than sit there and always kind of wonder, what if I never do it? What if I never write? How do I do it? So, yeah.

[00:07:24] YD: I love that. I love that so much, and I'm so glad that you went to the conference and that, that you ended up in my workshop because look at, uh, look at where you are today and, Yeah, I, I love that conference. I always meet such wonderful people there who are interested in travel, who are interested in storytelling.

[00:07:43] And if you are listening to this, definitely check out with summit.com. We'll link to it in the show notes as well. the, the people behind this conference and this community are amazing. They're our friends. They have so many wonderful events and opportunities too, in their network. So definitely check it out.

[00:08:00] It's a, it's a very great, community. So you mentioned couple of times, fears and, you know, I often say that our fears are really of the biggest obstacles we have on this path because, Our fears, cause us interpret some things in a way that's negative for us. Our fears cause us to, uh, not always see things as opportunities, but rather as challenges or obstacles.

[00:08:29] And the biggest thing is that fears. They stop us from actually taking action. They stop us from sending that email, from writing that pitch for talking to that person at the conference. Right? and especially in a career as subjective as this, where there isn't a clear cut path a lot of it is about ideas.

[00:08:50] Coming up with ideas. It's about creativity, which is so subjective. I feel like that's just like a perfect storm for our fears to be really powerful, you know? And so I wanna talk about fears a little bit now because I found that it's also such a powerful release. When we talk about them out loud and we see that other people have very similar kind of hesitations and fears as we do.

[00:09:15] So, if you're open, of course, to sharing, what were some of those fears that you mentioned, that as you were starting in this space,

[00:09:23] JA: I think, you know, one of my biggest fears has actually been that once I started doing it, that I would sort of stop and that would stop me from even trying, that I wouldn't follow through that I would. Disappoint myself essentially. and I, I think for me that was a bigger fear than facing some of the potential rejection I might from editors.

[00:09:44] although I did also have fear of how others might see my writing.

[00:09:48] YD: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:49] JA: And somehow, I even started writing really actively, I had a reputation as being a good writer amongst a circle of my creative friends in Boulder, Colorado.

[00:09:59] YD: I. love it. 

[00:10:00] JA: And I sort of had no idea, you know, people knew that I enjoyed writing, that I enjoyed reading, but I, I think that created actually even more fear in me because I thought, well, if people start seeing my writing and it doesn't live up to this idea, they've somehow created of me, you know, that might be, uh, devastating. Right. and I think such a big, Issue with fear is that when we give into fear, we try to protect ourselves. And I think that's where we really stop from taking action, right? Because we, and that's a natural, that's like an evolutionary, you know, response, right? Oh, there's a, a fear out there.

[00:10:39] I need to get to safety. I need to protect who I am. 

[00:10:42] And,

[00:10:43] but I, I found that once I just saw the fear as sort of part of the natural process and gave some space for it and let myself just experience it as one of the many feelings that was gonna happen through this process, it stopped having dominance over my decision making right?

[00:11:00] And I was able to just make room for it as part of what was going on, but not let it be in the driver's seat.

[00:11:07] YD: I love that. I love, and in fact, that's that exact, uh, phrase came up for me as you were talking about this because, Liz Gilbert, which we bring up, often in our conversations, right? In her big magic book, she talks about that. She says, Hey, fear, you can be in the car. You can sit in the back seat.

[00:11:24] You cannot be at the driver's seat. Like I acknowledge that you're here, come along for the journey. Like, uh, we're in this together, but you're not driving my friend, I'm driving. Right. That's, that's what you're talking about

[00:11:35] JA: Yeah. And as you say that, I read her book last year, and so that's probably in there. you know, in my brain, that language. But I, reading her book was, really formative. And another aspect of her book that really stuck with me, uh, is just taking joy in the process is as wacky as that might sound, especially when fear is involved.

[00:11:53] Just learning to have some fun with it and, and really try to tap into who you are creatively and being able to start finding joy in pitching. Just, it really, that was a moment where everything began to change for me and I thought, okay, I could do this. I'm gonna sit down and write pitches a couple times a week.

[00:12:07] but you know, it was a process to get there and it's always a work in progress.

[00:12:12] YD: Absolutely. Tell me more about that. Like how did you find the joy in pitching? Because that's the subject that's actually a lot of people get hang up on, you know, pitching is not fun for a lot of people, or at least that's the idea they have of pitching that it's not fun. when you said, I found the joy in pitching, my ears perked up immediately because let's unpack that a little bit.

[00:12:33] How did that happen for you?

[00:12:34] JA: Yeah, it's, you know, I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I, I can say that something in Liz Gilbert's book just kind of sparked creative joy in me.

[00:12:43] my husband is also a dancer and he's a very, he doesn't do a very structured form of dance. He does what's called contact improvisation, and I've really been able to observe him just take joy in the immediate process of creating, and I wanted that for myself.

[00:13:00] And I think that that's something in writing that can be harder to tap into. So I just tried to kind of bring what I saw him doing. Into my world, and I would sit down and instead of thinking, this is so daunting, how am I gonna come up with an idea? I would just start reading and write things down on a board and take sticky notes and put 'em all over and try to help myself get in a relaxed and just sort of flow, uh, state, which isn't always easy.

[00:13:24] But once I started doing that a little bit and really truly just playing with what I was doing, I was able, you know, every time to do that with a little more ease and a little more ease. And I think another thing that's important has been important is there are times where I feel like, oh, I, I need to do this many pitches today.

[00:13:42] I'm behind. sometimes that to me, is a signal to take my foot off the gas.

[00:13:46] YD: Hmm.

[00:13:47] JA: Right. And go for a walk. try to come back a little later. And, yeah, so I think just really the idea of play and, and having the right to experience joy in our life and having to take responsibility for that and realizing that I could, I could have that if I wanted that for myself, but it was up to me to find out how to access that.

[00:14:07] YD: Oh, I love that. That is so beautiful. Yeah, that playfulness, we actually experienced that yesterday on our workshop. Right? Like we talked about that a little bit. That when you introduce that element of play somehow a lot of that pressure and a lot of that fear and that seriousness it, kind of falls apart.

[00:14:23] So so important. And you also talked about consistency by the way. Because, or at least like that's what I heard you say is that when you're consistently applying this process of being playful with writing your pitches, you get better over time. So it's not like you tried this once, one time and that's it.

[00:14:40] No, you, you were consistent at, at doing that. And that's a, that's a huge element in this as well. So I wonder what's kind of motivated you to join our program Last year when you saw me at the workshop in Puerto Rico, you heard me speak. what were you hoping to accomplish or what were some of your, goals or your aspirations as you were, thinking about joining us?

[00:15:01] JA: Yeah. One thing that really swayed me, or just appealed to me, I'd like to use that word instead, that really appealed, was, that I knew that you had done this before, that you had faced so many of these challenges on your own. And that signaled to me two things. Here's someone who has. You know, knowledge, more advanced knowledge of how to do all this.

[00:15:20] And also here's someone who's really reaching out to other women to uplift them so that they have the fortitude and the community to keep going when things get challenging. And so it was both sort of the logistical knowledge of how to do this. And then also just really sensing from how you presented yourself, from everything I read about the circle that okay, this is a genuinely supportive, community, and I think being emotionally safe in a process so vulnerable, is also really critical to success, right?

[00:15:51] Yeah. Oh my goodness. thank you. Thank you, Joliene. Thank you for saying that. And thank you for pointing that out and actually picking up on that because that kind of has been my intention all along, especially since we moved the program into the new structure, which is, Actually, you were one of the first students who experienced a new structure because before.

[00:16:11] YD: The, the program that we ta that we teach now, it used to be, I don't even remember how many weeks, but it was like a eight weeks I think. Uh, but it was a standalone thing. It was its own thing, you know, and then the circle was its own thing. And what I saw is really that people need that community and that support, especially in the first, uh, however many months as you're getting your feet wet.

[00:16:32] And so you were one of the first students to go through that revised structure, which we now run. Which is a six month, you know, program within the circle, kind of larger circle structure. And I'm, I'm so glad that you picked up on that. and hopefully we're able to experience some of the benefits of that as well, because Yeah, I think that's actually crucial, especially in the beginning when you're just starting out.

[00:16:53] You have all these fears. Sure, you can have that practical knowledge that I teach. but I found that if you have it in isolation, it's not gonna be as effective because again, you, you, you have all the knowledge now at your fingertips, but here you are still fighting with some of those demons and some of those fears that are gonna still prevent you from putting that pitch on paper and actually sending that email out.

[00:17:16] so yeah, I love that. Would you say, would you agree that that's kind of how, how you experience it as well?

[00:17:22] JA: Completely. And I, as you were saying, that another, aspect came up to me, which was the importance of feedback, right? And you used the word isolation and it's hard to write in a vacuum and get better. I mean, you can write an hour every day, but, uh, being able to, you know, put your work out there and get others.

[00:17:39] Feedback on how your pitches are going on, where, what your strengths are, what needs more clarification. it gives you a great sense of sort of where to go next. You know, I think it's easy when you just work by yourself to sit and think, is this any good? Is this any good? What if I change this? Is this any good?

[00:17:54] Which is really just running circles.

[00:17:56] 

[00:17:57] JA: but yeah, I, everything that you said resonates, and then that, that feedback is the other component that's been essential.

[00:18:03] YD: Yeah. And actually feedback is something that we need. I think with a, any sort of project or anything that we're working on, even me right now, I, I love it when I get feedback on my work as well, because, When another set of eyes looks at your work, it's almost always is gonna make your work better, right?

[00:18:20] Because sometimes another person's gonna see something that you don't see. Uh, we tend to write, from our own perspective. And if something is obvious to us, we're not necessarily gonna put it in the pitch. But another person who reads your pitch, who has nothing, no idea about the subject matter that you're writing about, it might not be obvious to them, right?

[00:18:39] So they might find gaps, they might find ways to make it stronger and all of that. So yeah, I. I totally agree. I think feedback is such a, such an important piece of this. I'm curious to hear your response to this and then I'll comment as well, but how would you say your, your pitch writing, skill has progressed, the past, uh, however many months you've been with us?

[00:19:00] JA: Yeah, I, so I think. You know, my challenge areas, and I think a lot of people start with these challenge areas are wanting to put too much in and not knowing, not knowing what to leave out. and that's definitely a process. I'm still, you know, so that's something I'm still in. Imagine, well, in some extent, Forever be cultivating.

[00:19:18] but another important aspect was coming to understand the difference between, you know, writing a piece, sort of the travel, blogging, you know, writing from your own perspective. This is where I went and what I did to zooming out and writing pieces that are focused in other communities, or, you know, being a vessel for other voices.

[00:19:38] And I remember early on in the course that was something that. came up, but it's really taken me actively doing the pitches to sort of decenter my own voice,

[00:19:48] YD: Yeah.

[00:19:49] JA: which for me as a writer, feels really important and fundamental because I deeply value being able to be that vessel for the stories of other incredible people, uh, or other.

[00:20:00] You know, really impactful communities.

[00:20:03] and so that's been actually maybe part of the joy too, is sort of being able to slowly access how to do that and how to, how to help uplift, other voices. Yeah. And so the pitching has improved both in, in how I, I pitch, how I, you know, approach what I'm pitching from whose perspective.

[00:20:21] And then just, you know, the basic structure and mechanics. Knowing how to write titles. That is, that is always a sticking point for me. But I think I'm slowly getting better. And, also knowing how to read, more critically other people's writing and not in a, like, criticism way, but to understand how they wrote, what they wrote,

[00:20:38] what's effective, how I might emulate that.

[00:20:41] so I, I mean, there's a lot there. There's, I guess in reflection, my pitches have improved and my understanding of them, immensely.

[00:20:49] YD: I would agree with that. I would agree with that. You know, for me, one of the joys of doing this work with you guys is that I get to see that evolution of you from beginning to now, and I think it's, something that. Is sometimes easier for me to spot than for you guys to spot because you are in it every day in now this is your work, this is your mind, this is your writing.

[00:21:13] Right? But for somebody who interacts with you and who sees your pitches in the beginning and sees your pitches now, I clearly see the difference. I see the progress, right. And for me, that's one of the biggest parts of the joy that this job brings me, because I love that part. You know, it's the teacher in me that is just like, so.

[00:21:32] Proud and so excited for you guys. Yeah, I definitely see the evolution and all the points that you've mentioned. In terms of how your pitch is improved, um, I also see a lot more clarity. I also see a lot more brevity by the way, which is also important, right? Because we talked about what you mentioned, that, you know, the not knowing which parts to include and which parts to live out.

[00:21:54] I, you know, I always push you guys to, be more. More, shorter if you can, and, and to deliver your point across in less than, rather than in more. So I definitely see you, uh, improving in that, in that direction. And I also wanna say that what excites me about your work specifically, Joliene, is that your, of all, you come up with really interesting ideas all the time.

[00:22:15] But what really excites me is how thoughtful you are. About those ideas, how thoughtful you are about the impact that your story might make on some of those communities. How thoughtful you are in how to approach some of these communities, how to approach some of these stories. This is really special, by the way.

[00:22:32] And don't lose sight of that and recognize that this is one of your strengths, actually. You know, so I, I, I love that and I just can't wait to see where, where that goes, uh, where that takes you next, because I think that's something really special.

[00:22:45] JA: I really appreciate that, and that's wonderful to hear you say that because being thoughtful is actually one of my, strongest personal values.

[00:22:55] it's 

[00:22:55] something that I really try to bring to everything, that I do. so thank you. That's feels really nice and affirming to hear that. 

[00:23:02] YD: Awesome. I love that. so tell me what were some of the hesitations though, in you joining the program? So we talked a little bit about the fears that you, you had, we talked a little bit about what you wanted to accomplish. Did you experience any hesitation when it was time to say, okay, I'm gonna do this, or No, I'm not gonna do this?

[00:23:19] JA: Yeah, I think that, you know, it's always, whenever I sign up for something in an online community, I think it's just gonna end up being worth it. And I try to really read the reviews, assess beforehand, so I think. There was that sort of natural trepidation of, I hope I'm signing up for what I think I am.

[00:23:33] And I absolutely did. You know? and I think having, I think that having met you at, at wits and knowing people who knew you and just being able to trust a lot of the feedback that I came across, was huge in helping that. And then my other fear was just, will I follow through on this investment in myself? And it took me a couple months. I mean, granted, I was traveling right after I signed up and, you know, was planning a wedding. So it took me a couple months to really get in there and start it. But once I did, I would say after about a month, that fear of, am I gonna follow through completely went away because it was so like, you know, fulfilling at every pass.

[00:24:07] 

[00:24:07] and so those were my really, my only significant, fears and apprehensions and they, they pretty quickly dissolved.

[00:24:14] YD: Yeah. Amazing. I love to hear that. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about that second one though? Because this is something that I know is a big. consideration for a lot of people, right? Am I gonna be able to follow through, like I paid money for this, I'm now part of this. But then life gets in the way.

[00:24:30] There's also so many other things, and by the way, somehow we have this psychology, this human behavior that once we've paid for something, we approach it as a sound cost actually. So even though we might. You might think logically that you know, because you paid for something, now you're gonna be more apt to take, take it and, and, and go through with it.

[00:24:50] But that's not actually how we approach it in human behavior. We treat it as a suncast, so it doesn't necessarily motivate us to go through with it. Right. So let's spend a little bit of time on this, right, because the way the program is structured is that there is a certain amount of self. Determination that you need to have in order to go through it.

[00:25:09] Because the, the, the lessons, like what I teach, the basics of what I teach, they are delivered in video, content format. And it's like 20 minute videos. You know, they're relatively short. You can get through them piece by piece, but still you have to sit down. to dedicate some time, and you have to get through this.

[00:25:26] Now, the other side of it is that then we have all the, all the regular calls, weekly, monthly, and where we get this, You know, live interaction where you bring all your questions, your pitches and whatever, but still there is that part of self-determination where you need to sit down and do the work. So I guess I'm curious to, to hear what has helped you in going through that part of the challenge?

[00:25:50] because it's important, right? You need to learn the stuff, but you need to sit down and do it. So how, how did that unfold for you?

[00:25:55] JA: Oh, that's a good question. you know, definitely setting a schedule for myself with it and sticking to it was important. time is limited, but we also, there's also a lot of time, I feel like sometimes, 

[00:26:10] YD: Yes. Oh God, I'm So you said that. Yes. 

[00:26:13] Thank you. 

[00:26:13] JA: Yeah. And it's so much about how we structure it and how we also give time back to ourselves by taking care of ourselves.

[00:26:21] You know, when we're in a better state of wellbeing, I feel like we can make more time and, and the time we use to do things that are creative is, used more appropriately because we're able to come to it with an open mind, open heart, and. I think that, you know, I, I worked hard to make, to set aside a couple hours, a couple times a week to just sit and do it.

[00:26:41] And, I mean, I guess that was how it really got started. And then just the more I did it, I guess the more it just came, became easier to sit down and do it. 

[00:26:50] YD: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:51] JA: and I think really putting on the table in front of myself and I, I actually, I started journaling about this. This was key. I started journaling about my fears and, and it really put out in front of me my biggest fear of disappointing myself

[00:27:07] YD: Yeah.

[00:27:07] JA: by, by not doing this.

[00:27:09] And I think really seeing, how painful that thought was. helped give me the courage to just take the bull by the horns and kind of claim my right to, to do this, to be this person, to be this creatively joyous human, you know. And it's weird that I had to give myself permission to do that because I think we're all inherit inherently creative to some degree.

[00:27:31] But there was something that I felt maybe actually even guilty about feeling such joy, right? And so getting to a point where it's like, you know, you don't have to feel bad for feeling joyous, you know? yeah, there's a 

[00:27:43] lot there. There's a lot there now that I 

[00:27:46] talk. 

[00:27:46] YD: So much to unpack. Joliene, this is amazing. Yeah, no, you know that, that, that piece about giving yourself permission, it is still viewed as a frivolous in some way career path. Or an activity, right? What, what do you mean? You're gonna sit down and, and write something and, and feel this rush of excitement about the ideas that you have No, go get a real job.

[00:28:08] Right? Or, or like, there is still a lot of that judgment that I feel like, we are caring, whether it's conscious or subconscious, whether we've, you know, whichever way we've ingested it. I think that's part of the conversation for sure. And that fear of disappointing yourself in journaling and uncovering that, if you remember, in one of the lessons there is the activity that we do called fears and poetry.

[00:28:32] And I always hear that, for people that's like the first step towards uncovering some of those fears and how powerful it can be when you learn about those fears. But then also turn them around and. Put them on, on their head. and of course what you said about scheduling time and how we don't have any time, but we have so much time.

[00:28:51] Listen, I always, I always tell this to people, unless you make something a priority, it's not gonna get ized. And at some point you need to decide for yourself what is important to you, because especially for a lot of women, right? We have been socialized as caregivers. Which means we are more naturally inclined to give to others than we are to pursue our own and to take care of our own needs.

[00:29:17] You know, even even taking it outside of this discussion, even on the mo most basic levels, right? We feel guilty when we take care of ourselves. Like how screwed up is that? You know? So there's a lot of that happening here as well. So what I always say to people is that, You have to understand that unless you prioritize this, it's not gonna get prioritized.

[00:29:37] And what does this look like? It looks like, okay, every Monday morning, let's say nine to 10 is my time to go through this. What else do I need to give up in order to free up space for this? Right? That's an important conversation that you have to have with yourself and with your. Schedule in your calendar because there's not gonna be a magic magically all of a sudden more time showing up on your calendar just because, right.

[00:30:03] You need to create that time. You need to create that structure. So I'm happy to hear that you actually did that, and that was one of the things that helped you go through it and, um, and, get done with the work.

[00:30:13] JA: Yeah. And as you, as you spoke to another, you know, as conversation does, another thing comes up, another thought to mind. And showing up in the community also allowed me to observe the success other women were having.

[00:30:26] And to celebrate that and also think that, you know, I want that for myself too, and I've seen them do it and so I can do it.

[00:30:33] And I think that also being a writer, we can become professionally isolated, right? But humans, I mean, I'm an introvert, but I know that humans are inherently social creatures. And I think there's something to being part of a creative community. That helps launch you forth into doing your own personal work in writing.

[00:30:52] and that's not something as an introvert that I would've realized the importance of until I was in it and doing it. 

[00:30:58] YD: yeah.

[00:30:58] Oh, absolutely. That's actually one of the most important parts, or one of the most important reasons for why this actually works, is because of that community. Right. It's, it's so powerful and I, I never know anymore how to speak about community, to be honest, because community has become become such an overused.

[00:31:17] Over extended word that it almost like lost its meeting. Um, you know, we always talk about community, community, community. It, I don't know, it, it feels like it's losing its magic somehow the word, but it's true, like the power of community cannot be overstated. Uh, when you, you know, we, we have a WhatsApp group as part of the program and you know, there's multiple ways in which we.

[00:31:38] Uh, stay in touch. And when you see those notifications come through that, hey, she just, she just got published at Conde Nast Traveler. She just got this pitch accepted by X, Y, and Z people like you who are getting the, these things done. And incredibly motivating, isn't it?

[00:31:54] JA: It is incredibly motivating, and I see people and I think, all right, and I, you know, I, and I think she's doing it, and we are doing it. We're all, you know, we're all doing this. We're all also bringing new voices into the travel industry and women's voices into the travel industry. And, you know, and women are, some of the, as I understand this, statistics are some of the, most frequent travelers and spend some of, you know, the largest amount.

[00:32:16] Of money in travel, but our voices are so much less represented in writing and you know, there aren't as many position of leaderships of 

[00:32:24] women. You know, this is a pattern repeated at infinitum across the whole universe in all industries. But, um, yeah. And so there's also, but there's like the individual level of success, there's feeling like we are doing this as a group and it is incredibly motivating.

[00:32:38] And um,it's also just not to get too goy mooky, but it's heartwarming to see people. Fulfill something that's important to them.

[00:32:46] YD: Yeah, and actually what you just said, I don't, I don't know that term. Gki. Wooki. That's interesting.

[00:32:51] but you know, it's, it's interesting because I'm always fascinated by how people get attracted to something because knock on wood, so far I've been able to attract and create a community around me of people who are genuinely super excited for other people's success. And I think that is so important because, There are so many examples of competition and scarcity and like, you know, I don't want any of that in our community. And so far we've been able to create a space, which is really like that, you know, we, we don't, I, I don't, I think you agree with me that nobody feels like they're competing with each other inside the community. We're all kind of sharing, we're all, trying to lift each other up and yeah, it's, it's been amazing to be. To see that, to build it, to be part of it. And, but I'm just always fascinated, like, how does that happen? That, that, that's how this gets created, you know?

[00:33:47] JA: Yeah, I, and that is such a beautiful thing when people can really, genuinely experience joy, for someone else. And 

[00:33:53] And that is definitely, definitely, definitely something that I feel in the circle and that I guess I, I didn't know if I would, if we go back to the conversation about fears before I joined, you know, is, is this really a supportive community of women?

[00:34:06] will it feel that way? Because I've been in other situations where you're, you're told that's what it will be and then it doesn't feel like that. but in this situation, it, it truly, It truly does feel that way, and that's, uh, and I, I also have seen that that allows everybody to be who they are creatively bring forward their best ideas.

[00:34:24] And then I've observed that wow, there really is room for all of our voices because we all have really unique ideas. Or if we have similar ideas, we have completely different approaches into them. And so that's been really important too, because I think we often rule ourselves out by saying, oh, I don't have anything to say.

[00:34:41] You know, I'm not original. It's all been done. And that's something that I think you, you speak to in the course and in the circle, Yulia, is that all of our voices have something unique to share. And I, I just, I really, you know, believe that, in a way that I don't think I could have before, before being part of this community, before part of this circle.

[00:35:00] I love what you say about the term community too. I'm gonna think about that.

[00:35:03] YD: Thank you, Joliene. This is so amazing that you bring this up because I, I think that's such an important. Thing to, to keep talking about. And in fact, I, I've just realized that in some shape or form, in almost every episode of the podcast, we talk about this, how the reason why, and, and we even had this conversation yesterday at our, at our pitch brainstorming workshop, right?

[00:35:25] The reason why I believe we're not all competing with each other is because we have such unique ways of thinking about things and we all bring, Very unique experiences, very unique ideas. and yeah, like you said, even if we're having a similar idea, the way we approach it is different. And just to give you guys a practical example of that, we keep referring to this workshop we did yesterday in Inside the Circle.

[00:35:48] It was a pitch brainstorming workshop where we, The assignment was to look at, pitch guidelines for Con Na Travelers. So I think there was like six or seven of us on the call. And we, we looked through the pitch guidelines and then I asked everybody to submit the first idea that comes to mind based on that.

[00:36:05] and we had like five minutes to do it. And And in that time, I. People started submitting their idea. We were all looking at the same guidelines. So the, the source, let's say, or the spark was the same for everyone, right? We're all looking at the same thing. But the ideas that people were coming up with were so wildly different where they were.

[00:36:24] All over the board in terms of, you know, intersection of travel and design, travel and culture, travel and of social justice, travel and heritage. Like there were so many different ideas in there, and that to me was another example and another proof. For why? I believe it's true that we never compete with one another because we started at the same source and we all came up with wild and different ideas.

[00:36:49] And if that's not proof of that, that we're not competing, then I don't know what is.

[00:36:53] JA: Completely. Yeah. And it makes me think too of how writing, you know, I think when we sit down to write a piece, we feel like we're creating a singular entity. This is an article, but really, I. All pieces of writing in the travel industry are constantly in conversation with one another. So if we don't offer our voice, then that conversation 

[00:37:11] doesn't 

[00:37:11] happen. Right? And, 

[00:37:13] and that conversation is what helps define, shape, move forward, the travel industry. and so if we, especially if we want to be represented in our voice to be represented, then we have to write and have that 

[00:37:24] conversation. 

[00:37:25] YD: Oh my God. Joliene, you're giving me goosebumps right now. No, really. This is so powerful and I never 

[00:37:30] even thought of it this way, but you're absolutely right.

[00:37:32] JA: I didn't until right now, you know, and this, and here we go. This conversation, right? , it generated that. And so do these pieces of writing in conversation. This is why conversation matters.

[00:37:42] YD: Yeah. oh my God. Absolutely. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a moment here. This is so beautiful. I just, it's, wow. It's such a powerful thought and I'm gonna sit with it for a little bit cuz Yeah. It's, that's powerful when you think about it that way, right? Even, even as a way to help assu some of the fears in your own head.

[00:38:02] When you're starting for why you should continue, it's that it's, you need to be part of this conversation. How important that is, that you're part of that conversation. Wow. Thank you Joliene. That is, that is amazing. That is amazing. So I wonder how did, so going through the program, so you went through the initial six month program and then you stayed in the circle, which is the community, you know, support that we.

[00:38:26] Um, continue. There's, there is an opportunity to continue that after the program is over. How did that time that you've been with us now, how did that change your process of approaching publications, of pitching? How are your fears looking now compared to when you started?

[00:38:43] JA: Yeah. I generally feel that, you know, having done this a few times and even, you know, after I got the first sort of no response or rejection, You know, I just kind of sat with it and felt like, I don't really feel that bad about this, to be honest. And I, and I think, you know, and it felt kind of weird.

[00:38:59] I thought, I'm supposed to feel bad, right? I'm supposed to feel crummy and in a couple points I have. But I think that, again, in the course, it was really, and, and you would say in the circle, you know, it's usually just not about you. It's maybe just not a right fit. For the publication or, uh, you know, maybe the idea needs to be worked on a little bit more and, Yeah.

[00:39:20] And so I've, because of that, because going through the first steps of being rejected and being like, okay, all right, I can do this, and now I, I know I need to work on this aspect a little more, and that's great. I'm learning, I'm becoming a better learner and sort of letting go of the need to be a high performer in favor of just trying to give way to the learning process.

[00:39:37] And then that encouraged me to keep pitching because I kept seeing that, okay, I'm, I'm getting better as I approach these different publications. And then also, you know, the more you approach the same publication, the more you get to know what they're looking for, what the personality of the editor is. And connecting with editors has made me realize just like what often gracious people they are, and personable. And I think that the idea of an editor before was just like, oh my gosh, they're this scary bearer of all my fate. But you know, they're, yeah. So I guess I've approached publications with, more courage and just more openness, and frequency as a result.

[00:40:15] YD: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Right? We, we, we have to demi demystify these people. They're people just like us. They're wonderful people in most cases, really great to work with and just really busy and really, you know, have a lot on their plates, but, but really wonderful people and I'm just so glad that you've kind of.

[00:40:36] You know, progressed in that journey and, and arrived at that conclusion because that is really important, the realization that's gonna help you continue pitching and continue working with people in the industry.

[00:40:46] JA: Yeah. And knowing another part of that too is knowing what the publication wants, right? Understanding what's gonna work for them, and understanding what audiences want instead of, what do I wanna write about? You know, what do, what do, what do people wanna hear about? What do they wanna add

[00:41:00] YD: And finding, finding an interesting marriage between the two, right? Because it's both, right? It's not only what the, the audience wants to read about, but it's also what you wanna write about because you, you have to bring some sort of passion or at least curiosity to it as well. So it's kind of finding an interesting way to have an intersection of those two.

[00:41:20] Uh, which of course, you know, it's, it is a sliding scale. I think sometimes it's closer to the what publication wants. Sometimes it's closer to what you want. Uh, but ideally you find that intersection between what you want to write about and what the, publication wants to cover. And that's where that great storytelling lives, to be honest, in a lot of cases.

[00:41:38] I love that. I love our conversation so much. So let's talk a little bit about some of the results that you've had since joining the program and later, continuing in the circle. you know, that we really love celebrating results and taking moment or like taking a pause pause to really acknowledge. How far we've come to really acknowledge our successes and celebrating them together.

[00:42:01] And I just wanna say that your, story on, the connection between travel and disappearing languages, which is about to go live,Uh, let's talk about that because it's super exciting. Uh,definitely by the time this episode comes out, I think it, it might be live already, so we'll be sure to link to it in the show notes if, if it is, I remember reviewing that page and I remember being so excited about it because I am also a linguist wannabe, uh, that was one of my aspirations growing up to be a linguist.

[00:42:32] and I just really love that idea and that story. So how did it feel when the editor sent you that acceptance email for this page?

[00:42:40] JA: Yeah. that one felt just really, you know, it was a sort of emotionally, I don't wanna use the word, I got emotional, but I felt it, I felt really deeply in my heart. Grateful. because I have spent, since 2015 I started working with Pacific Northwest in the USA and Canada Indigenous language communities whose languages are suffering and when language suffers, a whole host of other things happen.

[00:43:07] You know, I started working with these communities and I realized that, you know, even more than trying to learn their language or work on it, that a better place for me as an outsider was to just give support and voice to what's already being done. and, and I, I thought, you know, this seems pretty, pretty nichey, right?

[00:43:25] Like a, like a, a very niche uh, niche interest. But I just, I, I heard there was another piece that came out about disappearing languages and climate change in January, and I heard about it on a radio show and I thought I could have written that.

[00:43:38] And then I started to ask myself, well, what could be your, you know, they already wrote about this.

[00:43:44] Now how can you add again to that conversation?

[00:43:47] So I got to work doing that and I, I feel that both the work I put into the pitch, but also just that it really had conviction and it had my expertise and it had, you know, a higher purpose, in, in what I was trying to do. I feel like that's part of why that pitch was successful.

[00:44:03] wasn't just trying to write something to produce something. I was trying to write something that I really, uh, believed in. And trying to help bring light to a situation that a lot of people don't know about, but once they learn about it, are interested in doing something about. So when I got the acceptance, I just felt like, oh, you know, this is wonderful.

[00:44:22] I really get to help share something that is important, for lack of a better word. But it was one of those sort of bigger moments that felt bigger than, than me not to be so highfalutin about it. You know, not, not like I'm so great, but it just felt like, okay, this is part of my purpose as a, a writer, 

[00:44:39] YD: Mm-hmm. No, I understand that sentiment. I understand it so well, and we don't have, like, we don't, we don't have these, uh, moments. Every time I would say the pitch gets accepted, right? Because there is, again, there's a range of different stories that we work on and things that we pursue, but there are some special ones.

[00:44:58] That we really believe in and that we really feel strongly about that when they get accepted. I totally understand that sentiment of, you know, you feeling like you are in that moment fulfilling some higher calling even. when, when you put that story forward, and that's just such a beautiful, beautiful emotion to, to feel and to celebrate and yeah, I, I'm very excited about that story.

[00:45:21] I can't wait for it to go live. can we share the, the outlet that

[00:45:25] picked it up, 

[00:45:26] JA: absolutely. Yeah. And they've been great to work with this outlet, by the way, so,

[00:45:30] YD: It's, uh, adventure.com is is the publication that's going to publish it. And yeah, I've had a couple of interactions with the editors. They haven't picked up yet any of my pitches, but, both of the editors were just really lovely. to interact with and what I understand from your experience with them, that they've been great to work with as well.

[00:45:49] So that's awesome. And congratulations, Joliene, that's, that's really awesome, uh, that you got that. and there are also a couple of other stories that you've also, Have gotten accepted, and I know that you're working on several other exciting pitches, uh, right now. So I guess my kind of larger question is what, what are you doing differently now than you did before?

[00:46:13] When it comes to writing? When it comes to pitching, storytelling?

[00:46:17] JA: Yeah, I'm closing my eyes to kind of think about it. What am I? well, I mean, I'm constantly compared to a year ago, engaged in. Feedback and becoming more involved in as many writing communities as I can. So that's something that's not actually in my writing or pitching, but is something that's helping inform it.

[00:46:36] I am far less. Critical and hard on myself, than at the beginning because I just, right. I've realized that I don't really get anywhere when I do that. Um, I just get stuck and so I let myself be light and free and generate whatever I want, you know, and not try not to judge it, or, 

[00:46:54] or try not to think, is this a good or bad idea while I'm doing it?

[00:46:57] And then I come back to it and even if it doesn't seem quite right, then I can take what is working from it. And try to rework that. Or if I'm like, eh, this is just, you know, I don't know what I was really thinking at that moment, that's not really speaking much, then I just let it go. Right.

[00:47:10] yeah, and I'd say that's, that's been the biggest, that's been the biggest shift.

[00:47:14] and then also on the heels of writing one pitch, well, sort of looking at what was working well in that

[00:47:20] and trying to better understand what, for me makes a, not just a good pitch, but what kind of. Process or topic, seems to produce my best work and my most exciting ideas.

[00:47:31] YD: Mm-hmm. And, and I think you also mentioned earlier that looking at,looking at other people's writing with critical eyes and also like being in this mode of, constantly. Learning from other people too, right? Like when you, when you're looking at other people's pitches, when you're looking at how they're putting their titles together or kind of how they're structuring their ideas, um, I think that's, Also a very helpful thing, that that's happening in, in the community.

[00:47:58] I mean, I, I think you're such a wonderful writer, Joliene, I've told you this already several times. I'm very excited to see you, take this further and I'm very excited to see what kind of ideas you will come up with. And I'm very happy that our, our paths have crossed a year ago and, hopefully sometime soon, we'll even meet in person.

[00:48:17] you were gonna be in Puerto Rico, if I recall 

[00:48:21] right? For the, 

[00:48:22] JA: I, I won't be this year, but I, I will be at another witz. and I did wanna add one small thing to what you're saying about reading other people's writing. I actually now as a practice, sometimes I sit down and I read the article and I'll look at one paragraph and I'll say, okay, here they're describing, and I'll look at the next one.

[00:48:38] I'll say, here, they're summarizing and I'll really try to break down the mechanics of it, and I'll even try to. Try to write a piece in that style just to see how it feels and, you know, and that, that helps. I don't always, that's not a piece that I usually publish, but just to, you know, I get really nitty gritty.

[00:48:53] Um, 

[00:48:54] and that's been illuminating, but

[00:48:55] yeah. 

[00:48:56] YD: I love that. That's actually, we talk about this quite a lot in the circle, right? Like and that's what I mean when I say when you're reading a trouble magazine, now read it as somebody who is in the industry and who is reading for craft, who is not reading for leisure, right?

[00:49:11] You're reading to educate yourself and to kind of dissect that story and dissect that writing a little bit and understand. How the pieces are working together, which is, uh, what you're describing here. Yeah, I think that's, uh, I mean, of course we should still be reading for leisure as well, but still having that sort of lens, especially if it's a magazine that we wanna work with, right?

[00:49:31] You're looking at that story and you're trying to understand what is working there, why did they choose that story? you know, what are some of the successful things that they're doing there? That's, that's super, super important. Amazing, Joliene. Well, listen, I don't know how this always happens that we, uh, we get into a conversation and then next thing, next thing you know, an hour is almost over.

[00:49:52] but I want to start wrapping up with,thinking about what would you say to somebody who is maybe interested to get their stories published? Who is interested in becoming a bigger writer? Uh, a bigger storyteller. or not, not bigger, but you know, becoming an actual, published storyteller, published, writer, and, maybe wanna take some steps toward their creative aspirations, but aren't also not sure.

[00:50:20] What would you say to them?

[00:50:21] JA: Yeah, I think the first step is really to find other people who've done it and are willing to support you, and help you go through the process, because that'll help you understand. It'll give you more time to work on what you're doing and less time having to worry about how to do it, if that makes sense.

[00:50:37] So less time about where do I pitch, where do I find the guidelines, what are the publications? There's already people who have done a lot of that legwork, and so finding out. Finding those people and creating, you know, and having a supportive group to help you just get started. And then, you know, once you start writing, being really aware of whatever those negative voices are or the fear voices are, and kind of giving them room.

[00:51:01] And if this is a particular challenge for you, I do recommend reading Liz Gilbert's Big Magic. That can really help reframe how one might approach their fears. and then just, you know, Just understanding that I, I feel like it's you giving your gift to the world when you choose to fulfill your creative self.

[00:51:20] Right? And so it doesn't do anybody good either you or the world if you just keep some of your gifts and your passions to yourself. And so looking even beyond yourself and your own fears at what you might be keeping from the world if you don't share your voice, and understanding that that's part of, that's part of this too, and a really important part.

[00:51:39] YD: Ah, that is so beautiful, Joliene. I don't think I could have said it better myself. It's such a beautiful way. To leave our audience with today that if you, when you decide to hold back some of those gifts that you have, is that you're doing a disservice to not only yourself, but to the world as well. I really love that thought.

[00:52:00] And also what you said earlier about this being a conversation in the industry and how we need to contribute to that conversation. I'll definitely take those thoughts with me now and reflect on them and, and, and. Think about them as well because that is just such a beautiful and thoughtful way from a thoughtful person to to think about this industry.

[00:52:19] So I wanna thank you so much, Joliene. It was such a pleasure chatting with you today and I look forward to seeing you in the circle. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us today, and can't wait to see some of your stories that are coming up as well. 

[00:52:34] JA: Thank you.

[00:52:35] I'm grateful to be here and good luck to everybody.

[00:52:38] YD: Thank you so much. 

[00:52:39] Did you hear something that resonated with you today from Joliene's story? If it did, then maybe just maybe our six month group intro to travel journalism program is right for you because it gives you all the systems and the knowledge you need to get the fooding in the travel media industry and send your pitches out.

[00:52:58] But that's not even. All what makes this program so powerful because a six month membership inside the circle is included in the program. We're already bringing together an amazing group of storytellers who want to get their stories published, and we have a bunch of people joined and ready to get started.

[00:53:17] So if you wanna join that amazing group of people, go over to travel medialab.com/class to join the wait list and get information about this program. But take note, enrollment ends Wednesday, May 31st. So if you've been looking for a sign to take action on something you wanted to do for a long time, this is it.

[00:53:39] So don't wait. Get on the wait list today and I hope to see you inside the program very soon.