S7 E80: When The Creative Path Calls, Answer (Re-Release)

Get the show’s transcript

“YD: We see the gap that separates where we are from where we want to be and it’s almost like it paralyzes us to inaction when we’re like, “How do I ever get there? It’s such a big gap” but I think we underestimate the power of small actions every day of doing something that gets you closer and closer because, over time, those build. It becomes like this snowball, lo and behold, a year from now, you see yourself, “Oh, I’m published here, I work with this brand, I do this, I made it happen” but it all started because you were taking those small actions every day.” 

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:33.5] YD: Welcome to the Travel Media Lab Podcast. I’m your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer, entrepreneur, community builder, and a firm believer that every one of us can go after the stories we’ve always wanted to tell with the right support, encouragement, and structure. 

I’m on a mission to help women storytellers everywhere break into and thrive in the travel media space. If you’re ready to ditch your fears to the side, grow your knowledge and confidence and publish your travel stories, you’re in the right place. Let’s go.

[0:01:10.4] YD: Hey everyone, I hope you enjoyed last week’s episode with Jessica Vincent and if so, you’re going to love today’s episode too. If you’re a newer listener to our show, you might not have had the chance to work through our whole library yet.

Over the last seven seasons, we’ve recorded a variety of interviews and in-depth episodes on a range of topics in travel media and that’s why this week and last week, I’m sharing with you two very special episodes from our archive. 

So today, I have this episode that I’m very excited to share with you that is a panel discussion we did all the way at the very start of the podcast, back in 2020 with our three Circle Members, photographers Toni Porat, Laura Wheatley and writer, Hannah Foster-Roe. I think this is one of my favorite episodes on the podcast because it is so real, raw, and poignant but also, uplifting, inspiring, and affirming. 

I just love the community we’re building inside our membership, The Circle, as well as the larger Travel Media Lab community, and this episode gives you a glimpse into the kind of atmosphere we have. I hope you enjoy this episode.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:24.3] YD: Today, we have a very, very special podcast episode and I’m super excited to welcome our three wonderful guests. We have a photographer from Saskatchewan, Canada, Toni Porat, we have a travel and lifestyle photographer and writer from New York, Laura Wheatley and we have a travel writer from London UK, Hannah Foster-Roe.

I know these three wonderful women from the work that we’ve been doing this year with genius women. Hannah and Toni were in our storytellers and action masterclass this summer and Laura and Toni are in our Circle membership that we’re running now and so I’m really excited to introduce you to these three women and to talk about the topics that are near and dear to my heart but I think to their hearts as well from all the conversations we’ve been having this year and those topics are going after our dreams and what does that look like in practice.

This is a topic that I’m really, really passionate about the pursuit of creativity, about the fears that are often stopping us, about community, about all these wonderful topics. So welcome friends, very, very excited to have you here.

First of all, what I would like to kick off our conversation with is this question: As creative careers, right? Pursuing things like photography, and writing is very much still an untraditional, aspirational, but untraditional career path that seems like it’s out of reach for many people.

So I’m curious, when or how did you realize or did you think, “Hey, I want to go after this untraditional, aspirational, out-of-reach career path.” How did that happen for you?

[0:04:25.2] HFR: I’ve always had untraditional aspirational dreams because I grew up wanting to go into like theater and performing arts and stuff. I’ve always been a dreamer like really in that sense and then yeah, as you sort of as you get older and like, your dream starts to evolve, and then I realized that I’ve become far more passionate about travel than I have been, you know, the path that I’ve just been trying to pursue before with working in base or doing playwriting and stuff. 

Then I don’t really know when my lightbulb moment was but my mother-in-law actually has been saying for a while like, “Oh, you should start a travel blog or you should try and make your love traveling to something” and I was just like, “Oh yeah but you know, I’m not qualified” and all those kind of things and I just woke up one day in February and was looking at what was at that time quite a busy year of travel that I had planned.

And I was like, “Oh you know, you know, I’m going to go to places like Oman and I’m going to go to New York and I’m going to go to Finland and Estonia” and places like that and none of that happened but I was like, “You know, I want a way of documenting this year and I want this year to be the start of you know, how I mean to go on.” I started a travel blog and then lockdown and Coronavirus happened and I think I’m one of – I must be one of the only writers, travel writers that’s continued just going for it throughout the whole pandemic in a sort of blind hope.

[0:06:13.7] YD: Yes, that’s so interesting. So you’re basically, your decision to go full in into this has started or has blossomed in the middle of the pandemic, which is quite an interesting way to kick off this career and that’s actually, I think in one of the episodes we talked about this that people ask me right now, “How can you even like, imagine, doing something with travel right now like, what, you know, there is no travel to speak of.”

And I’m like, “Listen, it’s always going to be hard to launch this career.” It’s going to be hard this year in the middle of the pandemic, it was hard for me four years ago when travel was there. It doesn’t matter honestly, it doesn’t matter. You need to start and you need to not let any of these things stop you because it’s going to be hard this year, it’s going to be hard next year, and it’s going to be hard when travel returns.

So don’t let that stop you. It means, you have to be more creative actually, Hannah, right? In figuring out what can I write about this year, when I can’t actually go and visit some of these places? You know, it always gives you more space to figure out what are the stories you want to tell. What are the stories that I could be telling about traveling, about exploration, and about cultures that don’t depend on me going somewhere right now?

So just a different way to look at that. That’s amazing and for our listeners who are listening to this episode, that was Hannah from London.

[0:07:39.8] TP: It’s funny that you say that it started during the pandemic because I feel like, for myself, it was the same. My first inclination towards something really artistic or creative was when I was at University and I was actually studying psychology. I grew up on a farm and in a situation where for me, academic aspiration was absolutely the only road. And I loved school and I didn’t even question it, a Ph.D. was actually in my mind what I was going to do. 

I took a few photography courses as an elective and fell in love with it and it’s so funny because I remember my mom actually said to me at one point, I think it was maybe my second class in photography and she said, “You know, I’ve never seen you light up like this with anything else that you’ve ever done” and she said, “Would you ever consider switching into BFA or you know?” and I literally laughed. 

I just went, “What are you talking about? This is for fun, there is no way this is going to be a job. I’m not going to be the poor artist and no, I’m not doing that” and I continued on the path and I disregarded it despite taking every photography class I could possibly take. Then life happened and children happened and jobs happened and it became my hobby but I never actually seriously considered pursuing it. 

Pandemic happened and lots of other things happened in this year as well personally and it was almost like a reset and I don’t know why. I mean, it just sounds so cliché but it, you know, especially because so many people went through so many things but for me, it was just a realization of time and how temporary things are and how important it is to actually try to fulfill the things that drive you and the things that matter to you deeply.

And it just, and it forced me to really think about that and in a way that my busy-busy-busy life was preventing me. Not preventing me, I suppose I was just choosing other priorities, of course, and I didn’t really give myself enough time to contemplate that. I just sort of… my thing was, it’s too late, right? And that was how I felt. It’s too late. 

I had the opportunity when I was young and now, my life has evolved in all these different ways, and now, it’s just for fun and that’s all I need to think about it as I should just let it go. It changed and then Yulia, taking your class with such a powerful kick in the butt to just go, “What do you mean it’s too late? I’m still here” and I have, you know, whatever time I have left on this planet, why am I not doing what I want to do and pursuing the things that I'm passionate about and hopefully bringing things to life that I don’t want to sit in a closet anymore. 

So yeah, it’s been a thread throughout my whole life but very recently, it kicked up a notch, for sure.

[0:10:39.1] YD: Gosh Toni, like, all the things, right? Like, all the things you said, I’m like, “Yes, I sign under oath.”

[0:10:45.9] TP: Yeah.

[0:10:46.4] YD: And that thing about joy, right? Like that’s how you know, right? That’s how you freaking know.

[0:10:53.0] TP: Yeah, I know.

[0:10:54.5] YD: This month in The Circle, we have, we’re talking about zone of genius and how do you understand what your zone of genius is and how do you stop operating in all these other zones of excellence and things that we’re used to and things that pay the bills and all of that stuff.

But in our societies, we don’t talk enough about what brings us joy and our genius and how can we move our lives closer and closer towards that rather than all the other stuff because time is short. Our time here is so short, right? And I love your stories so much and your path, your whole path, I feel like it’s something that so many people experience, right? 

We push away those things that bring us joy because well, that’s not what’s typical and practical, right? We have to really think about practical careers and so yeah. And then I love that you had that reset time and you said, “No, you know what? Let me at least give this the respect, let me at least try it, let me at least try to pursue it and see what happens” instead of “No” it’s just pushing it aside as something whimsical and that I think is what separates actually artists, big letter A from not artist is that, they respect the craft. 

They respect the calling, they respect the joy that it gives you and they say, “No, let me respect it and let me go after it and see what happens.” We talk a lot about Elizabeth Gilbert’s, Big Magic book in our community, right? And she also talks about that, right? It’s about showing up every day for your creativity and respecting that relationship with your creativity and saying, “Okay, you know, let’s honor each other and let’s see what we can create together” and really treating it that way and I just feel like it’s such a beautiful way to approach that you know? 

So oh, I love that, that’s so beautiful. Laura, what about you?

[0:12:55.6] LW: Yeah, it definitely resonates with me, especially the part where it’s kind of like, you feel that creativity dying inside of you. I think that was like the epitome, that was like the movement for me but leading up to it, I started off being immersed in the culinary world. So I was in the hospitality and culinary, so I would actually do like wine pairing dinners and photograph those and then yeah, I was in love with food. 

I still am but then I started noticing, you know, I really enjoyed more of the photographing aspect in addition. So I’ve basically been in hospitality for a while and then slowly more and more I started branching out, doing more, say, creative portraiture and then finally, I have been obsessed with Japan for most of my life. So I had my first visit and I think that was the moment that really kind of changed things for me and it was just, I don’t know, I came back from that and said, “I have to go again.”

So I essentially just put all my fears aside and took my camera with me and I went for two different trips actually for the whole month each, just traveling throughout Japan, documenting culture and Japanese artisans and it was a strange thing. It was like, this is where I’m meant to be, just out there photographing, documenting people like in their processes that have been passed down for generations and I just felt so alive and it was the first time I feel like that was when it hit me. 

It’s like, “This is what I’m meant for” and I can’t imagine doing anything else. With the pandemic, it’s obviously, as you’ve both said, a difficult situation but finding ways to kind of work with and around that has been a challenge but a good one, an opportunity.

[0:14:54.4] YD: Yeah, oh my God, my heart just melted when you were saying that right now because it’s like that feeling of there’s nothing else I’d rather be doing, it’s like you literally said word for word. We had a couple of episodes ago with a photographer based in Kenya and she was talking about how there is nothing else she would rather be doing right now.

I feel like that’s what really gives us that energy to continue and to persevere, when we know deep inside like, “This is what makes me come alive, like, I got to hold on to that and I got to find a way to keep going and to make it, no matter what” because that is precious, that feeling is so precious.

[0:15:37.9] HFR: I did a masters in playwriting in Birmingham and then I moved to London and started just working in theaters because I was like, “Even if I can’t get a gig writing an actual play for someone like, I can still be in that industry.” So whether I’m just wiping tables in the foyer bar or selling tickets like I can still be part of that world and it took me like a few years of being here, being in London. 

But gradually, I started to notice that I had a real reticence about actually sitting down and writing a part of the play and it became something that I really didn’t look forward to doing and my heart wasn’t in it while I was doing it and then somewhere along the way, I was like, “Hang on, I love travel, I love writing, let’s try and put them together” and like, I saw a friend the other day and he was like, you know, he’s a writer as well. 

But he’s a playwright and he was like, “Have you got any writing exercises that you do get you motivated to write your travel articles and stuff” and I was like, I didn’t want to be smug about it but I can jot – like now I just find myself wanting to sit down and work on stuff like that and that’s been the real sort of teller for me is I don’t have to psyche myself up to do it. I just do it and I enjoy it.

[0:17:01.9] YD: Yeah, absolutely, that’s how you know, right? 

[0:17:05.8] HFR: Yeah.

[0:17:06.9] YD: For me, it’s also going to sound cliché and smug maybe but in the past four years, since I quit that job, the marketing job that I had that I never had any heart for. Every morning, I wake up, I’m like, “Okay, what are we going to work on today?” and that feeling, unlike, I never want to feel the way I use to feel where I’m like, “Oh, another day of slogging through” you know?

So it’s kind of similar to that holding on to that feeling of what makes you come alive. That’s the reason I feel like we’re all trying so hard and working and that’s what’s going to get us through those difficult moments and the moments of uncertainty and instability and not knowing when your next assignment is going to come through and dealing with all those fears that we’re going to get into in a moment.

It's like that if you can hold on to those feelings, if you can, like, just remember them when it gets hard, I feel like that’s what’s going to get you through some of those hard moments. I’m really big on dreaming, on imagining or like, on really visualizing the dream that we’re trying to work towards and visualizing it in the greatest detail because the more focused and the more clear we can be on what it is that we’re working towards, the easier it will be for us to start taking action towards that path. 

If we have a really clear picture of what is it that we’re working towards, it’s easier for us to take action and if you’re watching this as a video, later on, I have this little card on my table. It’s in Russian but it says, “If you’re going to dream, don’t deny yourself the opportunity to dream big.” Don’t deny yourself the opportunity to dream big and so, my question to you is, what are some ways in which you have found the ability to dream big and to imagine this new sphere or Laura, in your case, it’s not new you to keep working towards the dream that you have?

Are there some things that have helped you or are helping you how are you thinking about that today?

[0:19:13.9] LW: Recently, a month or two ago, I kind of fine-tuned my vision board for my dreams, and I feel that I would love to be, of course, in the travel spectrum and do a little more for travel, like tourism boards, for restaurants, for artisans, promoting, showcasing with photography but also writing.

And so now, it’s all about, “Where do I want to be with that, how do I work backward?” And trying to do my best to stay on that track, while also being kind to myself, especially during this pandemic. We just have to just sit back and be like, “It’s going to be okay.” You know, just take it one day at a time and do what you can but keep an eye on that future that you’re working so hard to build for yourself.

So it’s that and you know, through the community of Genius Women and just propelling myself little by little, having rewards for myself helps sometimes. So there are things to look forward to every day, every week but I know I’m heading towards my goal. So those are the main things that I do right now that work so far. 

[0:20:26.2] YD: I loved it, I loved it.

[0:20:28.3] HFR: Yeah, I think like what Laura was saying about working backward from the ultimate, the ultimate dream, and I do that now like especially since we worked on during the storytelling and action course when we worked on writing our dream down and being as detailed about it as possible and I look at that probably every other day and just like, and I look at you know, I look at the decisions I make and I just have that dream in mind and I’m like, “Will this move get me closer to that dream?” and then acting accordingly based on whether it’s a path that leads to my dream or whether it’s a path that veers of elsewhere.

[0:21:14.1] YD: I love that, gosh, I just want to say something because both of you brought it up. You know it’s funny, people say, “Oh, dreams.” I feel like there is this attitude towards dreaming that is like, “Well, it’s something unrealistic, it’s something impractical” it’s this like, your head in the clouds, what dreams, right?

But to me, I view dreams completely the opposite. I’m like, no, dreams are the future that you see that will happen if you work towards it. It’s just as simple as that. Of course, for example, I’m not dreaming to become the queen of England because that’s probably very unlikely for me, right? But if I have a dream to do something with my life that again, going back to that fire that we have, right? 

I know I can do it, I know, then, it’s actually very simple. You write out your vision in very great detail and you work backward like both of you said and there you go. It’s not actually some magic, it’s not actually something out of this fear of wishful thinking and it gives me goosebumps every time I think about it because I’m like, “If only more people realized that that’s the formula” right? 

You realize, you imagine your dreams and you work backward to make them into reality, think about how much more happier our world could be if more people are working towards their dreams and feeling happier and I feel like we just would get rid of so many problems this way, you know?

[0:22:41.4] TP: I agree with both of you about the working backward part because that’s exactly what happened to me too. Once I realized, “You know what? This is within my realm of possibility. I can actually create this even now in my life.” And so after the course, the storytelling course, I backtracked a bit and went, “Okay, where do I want to start with this?” and realized I wanted to revamp my photography skills and my editing skills and update what I was doing and learn more things that I always wanted to learn but didn’t have time and didn’t actually put the effort towards because I thought, “What’s the point?”

It's just for me and no one’s ever going to see it anyway and it doesn’t matter and I don’t have, it’s again, the too late thing. So backing it up and being able to say, “What’s an action I can take? What’s an action I can take towards this?” And then do another one and then do another one and it just propels you forward, it just propels you into it. It's this really cool energy that you create yourself when you just decide to do something and act upon it and it can be the smallest thing. 

It can be a big thing, it doesn’t matter, but it just is an action, and I think that’s what was really powerful for me it was just creating actions that are putting me in contact with people that have the skills and the knowledge and the passion for the things that I do and learning from them and utilizing that to propel myself forward. So that’s been – it’s been an amazing few months for that.

[0:24:08.0] YD: And imagine that we are talking like that in the middle of the pandemic.

[0:24:11.8] TP: I know, yeah, which was so crazy but it was, that was a huge silver lining. Absolutely.

[0:24:19.1] YD: Yeah and I think that what you said about actions, I feel like for a lot of us, women especially, right? We’re such perfectionists and we see the gap that separates where we are from where we want to be and that gap is so huge and it’s almost like it paralyzes us to inaction when we’re like, “How do I ever get there? It’s such a big gap.”

I think we very, very underestimate the power of small actions every day. The power of doing something that gets you closer and closer because, over time, those build. It becomes like this snowball. Lo and behold, a year from now, you see yourself, “Oh, I’m published here, I work with this brand, I do this, I made it happen” but it all started because you were taking those small actions every day.

Of course, it’s not going to be an overnight, it’s never going to be an… I’m sorry to disappoint any listeners who might think that that’s how it works. It’s never going to be an overnight success story, never, in any industry. So I think we really underestimate the power of those small actions. So when all three of you are talking about that, my heart is just blooming. The whole hour today, I’m going to be blooming today.

Because really, it makes me so happy to hear that, that’s the whole reason we’re here, right? In terms of this Genius Women effort, I don’t know what it is about but the idea of helping other women to do all these things I’m just like, literally soaring. I’m like, I’m so happy seeing that happen because the more of us do this, again going back to the more of us do this, the more the world is going to be a better place and it starts with this small community, right?

But then each one of you is going to impact someone else and maybe think differently and show some other people and some other conversations through the power of this and that’s how it starts, right? And then we’re going to change the world this way. Before we do that let’s talk about fears because man, what an animal our fears are. 

What a dragon, a multi-head dragon our fears are and this is a topic that shows up again and again in many conversations that I have with people who are looking in some shape or form to explore their creativity and to start putting their creative work out there, it shows up so many times. 

Toni, you mentioned that fear of, you know, it’s too late for me, Hannah, you mentioned, I’m not qualified or I’m not, I think that’s what you said, that you’re not qualified enough to do this work. This is what breaks my heart truly because I see very clearly that all of the things, all of the technical and tangible things, we can learn. 

We can learn how to be a better photographer, we can learn the technology of our cameras, we can learn how to write better, we can take courses, we can do very practical things, we can learn the skills but what’s stopping us most of the time is not that, we think right? We think, “Oh, I’m not a good enough photographer, I’m not a good enough writer so I can never do that.”

And we don’t realize that what’s stopping us is our fear, not the fact that we cannot do something because we can learn. We can hundred percent absolutely learn all of the skills but if we are afraid, we’re not taking actions and then nothing is happening for us. So this subject is also near and dear to my heart because yeah, it’s stopping so many people. 

It’s stopping so many people, myself included, right? We talked about and I share this in the class I think and in the episodes, like look at me, a month ago Nat Geo reached out to me for a project. Like, what? It’s incredible, right? It’s incredible. It’s my dream come true. The other week, an editor reached out to me for a package for another big magazine that’s just like, “Hey, I know you can do this, what do you got? Show me, send me some ideas.” 

So like, in some ways, I’ve reached that stage. I’ve proven myself so many times, I can do this, I am qualified. Still those fears, every morning, “Why will people – I’m not qualified enough I’m a fraud, who am I kidding? They will see through it.” 

So what I want to talk about a little bit is, what are some ways in which you have been able to recognize some of your fears because recognition is number one, right? It’s like recognizing, “Oh no, it’s just a fear. It’s nothing else and I am not going to let it stop me.” What are some ways in which you have learned how to recognize the fears and then to manage them a little bit better in this process? 

[0:28:52.9] TP: I think for me especially recently, I have two adult children and I find myself encouraging them in ways that I recognize I don’t encourage myself and or I mean and that applies to a friend or a sister or anyone else too, in that if they were encountering the situation or the circumstance that you were encountering or the doubt or fear, what would you say to them? And you certainly wouldn’t say to them what you say to yourself ever. 

It’s the opposite, it’s totally the opposite and I think I started to really realize that and really think about the stories I tell myself about myself and about my life and it’s a story. It is a version of the events or the version of the circumstance that makes sense to me but is there another way to look at it? We get so entrenched in our own stories about things and so it’s just a habit of mind really and I’ve just tried to be very conscious of it and tried to catch myself lately thinking these things that I wouldn’t ever say to anyone else, so why am I saying it to me, you know? 

I am finding that’s helping. It is helping, it is making me think twice about the limitations that I put on myself and also I’m thinking lately a lot that what have I got to lose? What have I got to lose? What am I afraid of? I care a lot less about what people think of me now at this point in my life than I ever did. I am more concerned about fulfilling what I actually want and believe and care about and so I’m less concerned about that and that’s a good feeling to not worry about judgment and what other people’s opinions are. It’s okay. 

[0:30:43.0] YD: Oh, I love that so much Toni and that is actually what I do a lot nowadays too. I’m like, “Why are you speaking to yourself in this horrible way? You would never speak to any of your friends this way. You are always so supportive to your friends and so uplifting, why not use the same – ” But I don’t know what it is, right? It is like it’s some sort of a defect in the system that like we do this, right? Or maybe we are not taught and we are not discussing this enough in society. 

Now, we are more and more but like by and large, it’s like this very aggressive negative way towards yourself. Why, why do we do that? The thing about recognizing that and now being aware every time because it is still going to happen, right? It is not like you’re just going to turn off the switch. It is going to probably continue happening but now you’re aware and you’re like switching that narrative when you notice it. That’s powerful. 

[0:31:39.6] LW: I agree on so many else. At first, I started being kinder to myself and it’s a long time coming. I think there was a moment where I realized I didn’t feel like I could put any of my own work on my walls like in my apartment like I wasn’t good enough and I just, I don’t know, I just woke up one day and there is this one particular photo that I had taken inside a taxi cab in Tokyo with two Geisha next to me that was and I look at it now. 

Every now and then because I use it as a reminder to be like, “How did I even get to that point?” like I was directing a photo shoot in Tokyo with Geisha and you know, it’s incredible and you know you don’t – I don’t always admire that about myself that you have like the, you know, obviously the skills eventually but more just that will and that drive to get there and that passion and so I think having those little reminders every now and then or you know, every time you pass in your apartment sort of thing to kind of be like, “Yeah, I did that.” 

You start just being a little more aware of how you talk to yourself and how you, you know, promote yourself in your own head sort of thing so. 

[0:33:00.8] YD: Yes. Oh my gosh, I love that. 

[0:33:03.1] TP: I love that. 

[0:33:03.6] HFR: Yeah, I think as well it’s remembering that every – you can turn everything fear its head and I think, you know, some days is easy than others to do that but I’d admit like it definitely depends what kind of mindset I’m in when I try and do that but I’d like, you know, sort of write down my fears. Write down what I am scared of or what I’m scared about before doing something and you know, and trying to like counter. 

Counter it with like if I send a picture and I am just like, “Oh, I will never get it” that I am just like, “Well, why shouldn’t I get it?” and or you know, little things like, you know, “Oh, I am not qualified enough” for instance and just like, “Well, is anyone ever completely qualified?” To be able to believe they’re completely qualified, and also like this is one that is quite – just keeps like keeps cropping up everywhere that’s like I can’t remember exactly, so I am paraphrasing. 

But it is like, go after your dreams with the same confidence that an angry white man would and just like a bulldozer. So try and remember that. 

[0:34:28.3] YD: I saw this, a little bit different iteration of it, give me the confidence of an average white man and big love to all my white man friends but I hope you understand what we’re talking about here, which is this more systemic way in which lack of self-confidence shows up in women and the way imposter syndrome shows up in women and the way we’re socialized to always think that we are never good enough. 

From the way we look to the way we speak and basically everything we do, we are held to such a high impossible standard that it’s very easy for us to think that we would never meet that standard and that we will never be good enough and it shows up in all kinds of ways and that’s how it permeates our thinking that, “Who am I to send this pitch, who am I to do this work? I will never be good enough, qualified enough” right? 

So yeah, I mean again, I don’t think we are ever able to completely get rid of it. If you listen to all of those TED Talks by all of those famous people who, I think even Oprah said it once that she has imposter syndrome before she goes on stage or maybe it wasn’t Oprah, maybe Oprah doesn’t have it but somebody, somebody of similar kind of stature. So it will never go away but with time, you are able to manage better and better. 

Again, you keep reminding yourself that this is just the thoughts that are showing up in your head, they have no basis in reality actually and I love your approach to it Laura, the printing out of your picture, which I think is so powerful. It is so powerful, you cannot see it but I actually have seven of my pictures hung on the wall, seven of my favorite picture images on the wall here and I look at them often and I remind myself exactly that thing, right? 

Like I am actually badass, I went and did an assignment in Mongolia, drove through crazy weather for three days to get on this lake, to take these photos and near like near death temperatures and then I had it published in National Geographic. I am a freaking badass. 

[0:36:42.3] LW: Exactly. 

[0:36:44.5] YD: But we have to remind ourselves that. I love all of your suggestions. I feel like that is something that if our listeners can adopt even little small pieces of what we are discussing here today, I think, you know, you are going to be already way underway to a more happy and beautiful creative life, it’s amazing. 

What I want to talk about next, now that we’ve established that dreams are super important and they are not magical thinking at all. Now that we’ve covered our fears a little bit and that could be its own episode, there is a lot to talk about there. Let’s talk about this idea that I also think about often these days, is that why are we so wired especially when we start to think that we have to do this all on our own? 

That there is no one out there to help me, that if I don’t figure this out on my own, I’m a failure because how couldn’t I figure it out on my own. What is this, right? Why do we have this in our societies that I have to be a superwoman and again, maybe it is about that impossible standard that we are being held towards, that I have to do this all on myself? Tell me what your experience has been with this and what your thoughts are on this. 

When I started, that was exactly – that was 100% me. I am starting in this industry, I don’t know anybody, I don’t know anything but I am going to continue just trying to figure it out because that is what successful people do, that’s how we do it. We do it on our own and that is such a huge myth, so let’s debunk it. 

[0:38:24.0] TP: I think it’s true for me not only in creative pursuits but it was very true for me in all aspects of my life. As a parent, as a person going through all sorts of different things, I always thought I have to figure this out and if I don’t, there is something wrong with me. I am not getting it, I am not strong enough. 

I am not trying hard enough, whatever it was and I have very poignant moments in my life where there were times when people close to me literally forced their way in and stepped in to help me with something that I was struggling with on my own and it was only in hindsight that I could recognize how powerful that was and how much of an impact that made on how everything played out and how much more fun and less stressful. 

You know, I was so – I think it was part of it I think is shame, you know? You feel like if you have to ask for help, it’s shameful in some way and I think that was something that always permeated my feelings about asking for help. I was embarrassed to ask for help and I am still working on that. That is something that hasn’t gone away but I feel community or working with other people through anything whether it’s any part of your life and creative pursuits empowers you. 

Also, empowers the other person, everybody is lifted by it and it is not something shameful. It’s the polar opposite. I don’t know where it came from. I don’t know why I felt that way for so long. It stuck with me for decades in all kinds of things and I don’t know if we are taught that or if it’s some – it is just like negative self-talk.

It is just something that begins and then it’s just a pattern of thinking, I don’t know but I’m really working on it and I am finding that it is slowly shifting for me. I have those feelings still but I try to bulldoze them and keep going and connect with people instead because it always makes a difference for me when I do. 

[0:40:31.6] YD: I have a theory that – you’re asking why that is – I have a theory that it’s one way in which a very patriarchal system shows up in our societies, maybe from a very old age, from the middle ages, right? When women were bonding together, it is a witch-hood of some sort. It is not safe, it’s dangerous, especially in like puritanical societies, which the US is one and you know, the UK I believe as well. 

It’s a theory, right? Not to say that is exactly how we live our lives today but I do think that something that comes from us comes to us in the past is impacting how we think today as well when women bond together, it’s dangerous and so we are taught not to do that. We are taught not to figure it all out on our own, you know? In fact, it could be further from the truth. When we bond together, it is powerful and we uplift each other like you said, Toni. 

[0:41:27.7] HFR: Yeah, I think it is so ingrained in every little corner of society that asking for help is a weakness and that you can say about so many things, and I always sort of prided myself on being like an independent person. I could admit that I am quite a stubborn person, but being part of the community doesn’t make me any less independent, it amplifies that. 

It gives me the strength to be more independent, it makes me feel more powerful, and quite often, if I am sort of like, you know if I am sort of shut myself in the bedroom for a few hours and I have gotten in my head too much and I can’t see the wood for the trees anymore and all of my works on the page are just a complete blur, I have to just step away from it and I just have to talk to someone who gets it and that’s just the tonic that we all I think need, that solidarity. 

[0:42:37.4] YD: Yes, I think you just brought up something really important Hannah because not every group of people is community and I have experienced this a lot when I was just starting out in this industry that you know, I have my friends and I love my friends. I love them to death but they didn’t understand what I was going through at that point, at the time. You know, most of them were in corporate, most of them still are like going in this career path and all of that. 

It was just so difficult for me because yes, I had a community with them but it was a very different type of a community, right? They didn’t understand the struggles that I was going through and what you’re talking about I think lately this is what has helped me thrive so much in the past year or so is finding people who exactly get the struggles, who are wanting the same things, who are likeminded people. 

I mean, like-minded people is another – it is becoming this cliché as well. It is so overused that word but it’s true. That is what you need, like-minded and like-hearted people who will lift you up when you’re like shut out in the room. 

[0:43:49.5] LW: For me, I am thinking about community over competition and that was a thing that you know, I thought I had to do everything myself as well and I was just used to it. I just thought, “I’m independent. Do this, do that” and I guess over time, I just started to meet some really inspirational women and I was like, “Wow, you’re such a badass, how do you do all of that?” and they’re just like, “I don’t like I have massive help.” 

It’s just like that unveiling, like behind the curtain. I’m just like, “Oh” and they tell me a little more like, “Okay, okay” and it’s fascinating to find those strengths in other women as well, especially where you have weaknesses and for me, I feel like I like to showcase other women. Lift them up. I did this series for Women’s History Month where I interviewed and photographed just different women who I thought were badasses and it’s just fascinating hearing their answers to things. 

Some that were not as predictable as you think and a lot of it was you know like, “Oh, I didn’t believe in myself like I went through all these years of hardship with them just feeling like I was a failure and then through this and this and other help and other women, you know, I was able to kind of get on my feet.” I thought that was so empowering. So I have been opening more and more to communities especially women, a community of women. 

[0:45:21.3] YD: Yeah, I feel like something is happening collectively, something is shifting in our societies because I don’t know, even five, ten years ago, I wasn’t really thinking about that at all but lately and I don’t know, maybe it’s also a function of growing more mature that this is something that I think about a lot is how do I help other women, how do I lift other women up, how do I share with them what I know? 

How do I lift that curtain? Which is what you’re referring to Laura because for some reason, especially in this industry, you know, the travel media industry, travel photography, the travel writing industry, it is still very much a secretive industry. There is still a lot of kind of guarding. It is still very exclusive in some ways. You know, only the best of the best gets to do this job, why? What is that all about? 

So sharing that and really just I guess growing the circle of again, women who want to do similar things has been important to me and I honestly stumbled into it, you know? I just felt really lonely in myself on this path for the past three or four years and when I started finding actual people like you that I am speaking now with, you see me today. I am giddy the whole hour, I’m like you know? It is powerful both ways, right? It is powerful both ways. 

[0:46:45.3] TP: I think what you said Laura, something really resonated with me in that I think we often create beliefs in our heads or myths about other people and how they do things and we assume that they are, like you said, just doing it. They’re super people that somehow managed to create and do all of these amazing things on their own independently and you don’t realize that they also have a network that they support and that supports them. 

At least for myself, that’s what I felt. I felt like I always sort of revered people who were so strong and so independent and so capable and assumed they were doing it on their own and that the fact that I wasn’t, meant I didn’t live up to that standard and I think it is really important to create a different standard in your own head of what that means and how to do it and just be realistic about your ideas of other people and how you’re comparing yourself to them.

What you said about not comparing is so important, it is so powerful to just stop that and become much more aware of how you are creating this mess in your own head. 

[0:47:53.7] YD: Yes. I love that you brought this up Toni because also I’m sure you have seen this like meme or something, a quote that has been floating around for many years now. It’s like, “You have the same amount of hours in the day as Beyoncé” or something, right? It’s like well, “Yes, for sure but then let’s also talk about the fact that Beyoncé has a team behind her who is helping her do all kinds of things,” right? 

Which is what exactly what you’re talking about Toni. It is like demystifying that idea of a single person being able to do all of these incredible things alone. That is why we’re here, that is why we’re talking about this and debunking all of these myths. Amazing, amazing, so we talked about dreams, we talked about fears, community. 

I would love to hear if you have any sort of piece of advice that you would like to share with our listeners who are perhaps interested in pursuing this creative path or interested in growing it into something more substantial and working with their fears and starting to honor this path and honor this creativity that lights them up inside. 

What pieces of advice would you share with them as a parting gift for this episode that has helped you on your creative journey? 

[0:49:10.1] TP: I think it’s easy for people to think of the next logical step when you are thinking of something like, “My tap is broken and what should I do?” It is so much harder to think what is your next logical step when it is something that you deem a matter of your heart or a matter of your spirit or a matter of your creativity because of a different value we placed on those things and I think my advice would be, to myself included, is to value that just as much as all of the practical things in our life that we are always finding solutions for. 

Always taking the next logical step and finding what is one step you can take because that was always powerful for me, what’s one thing I can do to actually move in the direction of honoring this and creating it to be a real thing in my life and not just an idea in my life and just not something I am dreaming about or thinking about but to make it real, you know? One thing, you know, take a class, or listen to a podcast. 

Do something, learn something, and just do one thing towards it and then that propels you to the next and the next and you’ll find it growing in your life as a real entity and you’re creating new connections and it just blossoms from there. So that’s mine, I am still doing that. 

[0:50:29.8] YD: We all are, right? We all, I am still doing that too. It’s a never ending journey but it’s like and your dream evolves. It adds new branches to it, you know, it is an ever evolving process but that’s exactly how it goes. Yeah, absolutely, I love that. 

[0:50:46.0] TP: It’s something I have been trying more and more to do. I am often a person that gets overwhelmed trying to do too much and it’s been kind of my mantra, what you just said for the past couple of months and it’s really been helping and another thing that I like to say to have as advice is to be kinder to yourself and I think that’s hugely important when we start to have those thoughts and we all talked about, “You know, I’m not good enough. I am such a failure in this business.” 

But then, what we just touched on you know, realizing we’re all kind of in that boat where we’re not, you know, we all have things going on. We’re all trying to do the best that we can and we all need help. So I think just recognizing that and just everyday kind of waking up, doing something for yourself that kind of affirms like who you are, yes, what you want to do and you know what you are building towards.

Be proud of yourself and your accomplishments today. I think that is so important. I tell my partner that all the time because that’s like his biggest thing and it really is just opening that for yourself and it just puts you on such a higher frequency I guess you could say. 

[0:51:58.3] YD: Yep. 

[0:51:58.7] TP: That prepares you for moving forward. 

[0:52:01.3] YD: Oh, I love that. It’s so beautiful. 

[0:52:04.5] HFR: Yeah, I would say that it’s never – I think it is normalized the fact that you know, our dreams can change from the point where we pick the subjects in school that we want to specialize in, to ten-plus years later but it is completely fine to then realize that you want to take your life in a different direction. We’re not the same people we were when we made those choices. 

I think the fact that we’re expected to make choices that like 16 and 18 that define the rest of our lives is bonkers and I think that one of the things that is really like – that I have really seen as well because I got – when I got my first article published and then I got my second article published and I was like, you know, watching it happen still doesn’t quite feel real and you’re like, “You know, how long can this sort of continue?” 

But I think you just have to trust in the timing of things and I’ve seen, you know, seeing my articles in print. I am looking at them and I’m just like, “Oh my god, I’ve wasted so much time spending so many years doing stuff that wasn’t this” and then that’s when I’ve liked, been like, “No, Hannah, you need to be kind to yourself, just because it’s happening now doesn’t mean that it would have necessarily happened this way if it happened any earlier like this is exactly the right time for this thing to happen now.”

[0:53:59.6] YD: It is going to sound a little, what’s the word? New age I guess, trust in the universe, trust in the process, trust in the time. I love that thing about trust in the timing of things. One question that people always ask me is, “How do I pitch National Geographic?” or “How do I work with National Geographic?” and without having done any steps or without developing your craft or without any of those things that you need to work up to pitching National Geographic, no, like “I want to pitch National Geographic now.” 

You know everything has its timing and I was one of those people. I have pitched National Geographic I think four months after I quit my job. I’m like, “Yes, I am going to work with National Geographic” and of course, I never heard back from them from that pitch, never ever-ever, you know? Because timing is everything, right? They have to work, you know, build up yourself, build up your portfolio and then National Geographic will come and then they will come to you. 

There is a process and there is a method behind it and that’s what we teach in our classes and that is what we discussed in our membership, timing is everything and if I just summarize what the three of you said, it’s being kind to yourself, which is so, so important, right? We have to remember that all the time. It is honoring that relationship with your creativity and then it’s trusting the timing and taking action, the most important one, taking action. 

You know you have heard me speak about this a lot, action is the only thing that separates our dreams from our reality. We have to start taking action. Until we act, nothing is going to happen. So what is the way for you to find a little step towards what you want to do? A little tiny step, it doesn’t have to be huge. A little tiny step towards your dream and then all kinds of things are going to start happening for you and I believe this wholeheartedly, a 100%. 

I thank you so much for a wonderful conversation today. It was a beautiful reminder of the power of putting four brilliant women in the room and having a conversation and I really thank you for your time and for you wisdom today. Thank you so much. 

[0:56:15.1] HFR: Thank you for bringing us together. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:56:19.7] YD: Thank you so much for listening today and I hope you found this panel discussion useful and inspiring and just a reminder that our membership, The Circle, is open for enrollment at any time and inside, we hold conversations like these and support our members in a variety of ways. You can check out our membership at travelmedialab.com/circle. Thank you so much for listening today and I’ll see you next week for our final episode of this season. 

[END]