S7 E74: On Assignment in Black Forest, Germany

Get the show’s transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:28.3] YD: Welcome to the Travel Media Lab Podcast. I’m your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer, entrepreneur, community builder, and a firm believer that every one of us can go after the stories we’ve always wanted to tell with the right support, encouragement, and structure. 

I’m on a mission to help women storytellers everywhere break into and thrive in the travel media space. If you’re ready to ditch your fears to the side, grow your knowledge and confidence, and publish your travel stories, you’re in the right place. Let’s go.

[0:00:38.0] I am very excited to take you behind the scenes of the process we go through when we go on assignment. We’re still experimenting with this format here at the Travel Media Lab Podcast and if you like it, check out episode 40 where I took you behind the scenes of my assignment in Austria, and episode 33 where I shared with you the process of going to California for National Geographic Traveler. 

Many of you shared with me that you really enjoyed this format so here we go again and if you enjoy this episode too, please, do let me know by leaving a review for our podcast. You know, if you’re listening to this episode to the end, you know that in the end of every single episode, I am always, always, always asking for reviews because that’s a really important way we can keep reaching new listeners of our show.

So please take a moment to leave us a review on the Apple podcast app if today’s episode is really resonating with you or you can also share your thoughts via Instagram, I always encourage those as well. When you give me your feedback, that’s how I know if I should continue recording these episodes and they’re not just going into a black void, you know? So I really, really appreciate it when people share their thoughts with me. 

So, for this episode, we’re going to Black Forest Germany where I wanted to go on assignment with National Geographic Traveler to document the craftsmen and women and artisans of the region. 

We’re going to really dig into the preface of this process in this episode and understand what it looks like and what are all the twists and turns that happened along the way. So keep listening to find out if I ended up going on this assignment or not and I hope you enjoy this episode.

[DISCUSSION]

[0:02:29.5] YD: So if you’ve been listening to this podcast for some time, you will be familiar with an acronym called, IMM which stands for International Media Marketplace. It’s a conference, a travel conference that I always recommend as the conference to go to if you want to start making connections in the travel media industry.

So this conference happens once a year here in the United States and they also run it in Europe and then Asia and in other locations and I make it a point to always go to the one here in the States. It happens every January in New York and so this year, I went to IMM and I had many wonderful meetings with different tourism boards and PR companies that represents tourism boards at IMM and one of the organizations that I wanted to talk to was Southwest Germany. 

It’s a region of Germany that I really wanted to explore because I grew up on the fairytales of Brothers Grimm. And if you guys don’t know who Brothers Grimm are, they have many very interesting, very sort of picturesque fairytales, stories like Hansel and Gretel, like the Frog Prince, like the Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, and most of these stories were inspired by this region in Southwest Germany called the Black Forest, right?

It's that very sort of iconic forest that features in a lot of the Brothers Grimm’s writing. So I saw that Southwest Germany tourism board is attending the conference and I wanted to talk to them and I went through the process that I usually go through, which is I introduce myself.

[0:04:23.5] You know, the conference by the way, it has this sort of interesting setup of speed networking, which is kind of like speed dating where you have 15 minutes with each of the different tourism boards that you want to talk to and you network with them and you introduce yourself, et cetera.

And so I went through the process that I always go through, which is I introduce myself. I tell them what my specialties are, which is you know, stories about ancient traditions, about artisans around the world, about some interesting cultural traditions and I also told them that I had an idea to create a story around the artisans and the makers of the Black Forest, right?

Because in this industry, we always have to think about unique and interesting angles on the topics that we want to write about, you know? So Black Forest in Germany is well known as this sort of epic landscape, you know, this forest, et cetera but the story that I wanted to make was more around the people of the black forest and the tradition of crafts and artistry in the region. 

So that’s sort of what we discussed in our initial 15 minute introduction at IMM and then after the conference was over, I came home and I had a whole list of people to follow-up with on all the conversations and so I just sent the email to the representative at Southwest Germany, kind of recapping what we talked about. So let’s see, let’s see what happens.

[LETTER UPDATE]

[0:05:55.8] YD: All right, so I just got the email back from Southwest Germany and you know, they said all the usual stuff which is you know, “We’re excited to talk to you at the conference” and they’re asking me in this email, which publication we’ll be publishing the story. 

I just take a moment and highlight this tension of this conversation that is happening in the industry between being a freelancer who wants to go on a sponsored trip with the tourism board and the need, the mandate, the requirement from a tourism board side of getting confirmed assignments, so the tension is as follows, right? 

As a tourism board, they of course don’t want to just send somebody on the trip just for nothing, right? They want coverage to be produced from that trip but as freelancers, we don’t control publications, right?

We are not staff at publications and so we can never guarantee a confirmed assignments and in fact, most editors they prefer that you pitch them after a trip not before a trip because after a trip is when you’re going to have a much better idea of what’s, you know, what is your story actually even and your angle and you’re going to have so much more detail and your pitch will be just so much better, you know?

So it’s this rob between what editors of publications want and what tourism boards want and there’s always sort of this question of, “Well, how do you navigate that?” and how I’ve been managing that over you know, over the course of my career is I am, basically, I’m frank with the tourism boards and I tell them, “Hey, this is how most freelancers work, right? We’re not able to guarantee that confirmed assignment.”

[0:07:41.1] “However, I’m thinking about approaching this publication or that publication. I think the story will be a great fit at this publication” and I can sort of soft pitch the idea that I have but just understand that even if you get that confirmed assignment from somewhere, publications can change their minds, you know? And they can say later on that, “Well, we decided not to run the story.”

So I expected that this will be the reply of the tourism board because that’s how it always goes, you know? You ask them, you tell them that you want to work with them and you know, let’s go on a trip together and the next question is, “Well, where are you getting this placed?” you know? That’s always the question. 

So I approached National Geographic Traveler Magazine, I have a really good relationship with the editor there and I know what is the story that I want to create from this trip, so let’s see what they say and by the way, that’s not their sort of layer of nuance here is that if you have a good relationship with an editor, no one says that you cannot, you know, email them and say “Hey, I’m planning to go here on such and such date and here is the story that I’m thinking about creating here, would you be interested in the story?”

[0:08:50.0] Most of the time, what they will say is, “Sure, I’m interested but you know, let’s talk when you come back” right? I would not recommend you sending that email to an editor that you’ve never worked with before because they don’t know you. They don’t know your work, you don’t have a relationship yet.

So for sort of cold pitches, I always recommend that you sort of pitch them a story that you are ready to write and you are ready to do because you’ve already done the trip, right? But for this situations and this tension that I talk about between, you know, being a freelancer who doesn’t control publications and needing a confirmed assignment to go on a sponsored trip with the tourism board, that’s how I manage that, right? That’s how I manage that. So, let’s see what happens. I sent an email to NatGeo so let’s see what they say.

[LETTER UPDATE]

[0:09:34.8] YD: All right, so I just got the email from Traveler, the editor said yes. He loved the idea that I sent, which was again, that idea of featuring and spotlighting the makers and the artisans of the Black Forest, which is not a usual angle because the usual angle is the landscape of the Black Forest, you know? And so the editor said, “Yes, let’s do it.”

So that was awesome. I’m happy to see that, I emailed off the tourism board rep, let’s see what they say next. They really wanted this to be placed in a US publication and Geo Traveler, it is a UK publication. One of the few ones that is still doing print because NatGeo Traveler US print magazine folded a couple of years ago, so they UK one is the main one now. 

So that the tourism board wanted a US publication because you know, the team that I’m sort of dealing with, they represent the US market, right? Their strategy and their efforts are focused on getting more coverage in the US and I’m sure they have another team that deals with the UK market too. 

But for particularly for the team that I met in IMM, they are focusing on the US market so it’s a bit of a disconnect I guess because you know, I don’t know, maybe they’ll send me to their UK team or maybe they’ll continue working with me. I’m not sure but I emailed the rep. I said, “Well, National Geographic Traveler UK is interested in the story” so let’s see what we can do and I’ll be keeping you guys posted as we go along in the story.

[TOURISM BOARD UPDATE]

[0:11:11.9] YD: Oh my goodness, okay, so I just heard back from the tourism board and they want to do it. They said yes. So the UK publication was no problem for them and they want to do it, it’s always so amazing to get that email, you know? And I just have to take a pause and really appreciate how far I’ve come and how hard I’ve worked to get here and to really make this a reality for myself that, you know, I’m working with these organizations and creating these stories.

It's always just so humbling for me and I love getting that email. Even six years in the spot, I still love getting that email that says, “Yes, Yulia, let’s work together” you know? It’s just so exciting. Now let’s see, I want my plan, my goal or what I hope to happen actually is that I would love to combine this trip with my upcoming trip to France this July, you know?

Because I really made this goal for myself this year, not to travel back and forth so much and you know, of course, the environmental impact of taking a trans-Atlantic flight back and forth is a huge consideration and also health consideration because just before the pandemic started in 2019, I had so many trips. I had too many trips actually.

[0:12:29.9] I think I was gone 10 months out of that year and most of these were like these transatlantic back and forth, back and forth, you know? And I really started noticing that as I get older, my body doesn’t process these sorts of time zone changes and jet lags the same way it used to, you know?

So some of you know, I might have mentioned this in the podcast before but I’m planning to move to Barcelona next year and you know, there are many reasons to why I want to do it but one of the reasons is that I wanted to be closer to all these destinations where I love to work. I love to work in the Middle East, I love to do work in Asia, in Africa, in Europe and it’s just so far. Just so far from the US, you know? And doing all these big transatlantic flights, it’s just too much. 

So that’s why I try to be smarter with all the planning and you know, all the trip planning that I do every year and so I have this upcoming trip to France to see my friends, which is not going to be about work. It’s going to be strictly leisure but I can combine you know, this trip, this assignment trip to Southwest Germany with that trip. So instead of flying back and forth or like, instead of flying to France, coming back and then flying again to Germany, I can just combine the two and it would be so much better. 

So let’s see, I’m going to reply to the tourism board that that’s sort of what I want to do but it’s a bit tight to be honest, because it’s May right now. So you know, and the trip is in July and some tourism boards are flexible and they can do things fast but some need a lot more time. So let’s see what happens this time, fingers crossed that I’ll get the planning and the logistics that I want.

[TOURISM BOARD UPDATE]

[0:14:09.5] YD: Oh goodness, so we’ve had so much back and forth email exchange with the tourism board representative. I’ve really tried to combine this trip to Germany on assignment with my upcoming trip to France this July but I think I overestimated a little bit how flexible this tourism board was going to be and in my experience, some tourism boards are definitely pretty flexible and others are not as flexible. 

So you know, we sort of looked at different dates, looked at what we could do but we were running into an issue where there just wasn’t going to be enough time for them to do all the logistics of the trip and everything that needed to happen on the back end of it and so they couldn’t accommodate my request of going there in July to coincide with my trip to France. 

So you know, and then at that point, I had to decide, so would I say no to the whole thing, knowing that NatGeo was also sort of now onboard or do I just press ahead at a later time? So what we ended up doing is we ended up looking at different dates and now, it looks like I will be going to the area in September. 

So I will go to France, meet my friends, take some vacation time there and then come back home, spend about a month, a month and a half at home and then fly out to Germany. So, that’s what we decided to do. 

Now that the dates are decided, now we have to look at the itinerary in more detail because I’m there to do a specific story. As I mentioned earlier, it’s a story about the makers and the artisans of the Black Forest region. So now we have to actually line up the interviews and line up the visits with all these makers and artisans. So that’s what we’ll be doing in the next couple of weeks and of course, I’ll keep you updated on that as well.

[ITINERARY UPDATE]

[0:16:06.8] Hi friends. So I thought I would give you an update on this whole planning and pre-journey process on my upcoming assignment to Black Forest, Germany. So we’ve had a lot of back and forth and email exchanges with this tourism board. It’s probably now – it probably now holds the record of the amount of emails that were exchanged in preparation for a trip and now that it’s sort of all figured out, the itinerary is ready. I think we should just gotten on the phone to be honest and we did got it. 

We did get on the phone a couple of times but especially in the beginning, it probably was a good idea for us to get on the phone and just really talk through what my vision is for this trip and what I am trying to accomplish and what the tourism board wanted out of this trip because here’s the thing, unless you communicate what your needs are and what your idea is, what kind of work are you there to do, the tourism boards are not always going to know that, right? 

They’re not mind readers, they don’t know. They don’t understand what you need and so when they don’t know, they’re going to just create a standard package and the standard experience that they do for everyone, right? They are going to take you to the most famous tourist attractions, they are going to take you through the standard itinerary because there is a vacuum of communication, right? 

So you need to be really specific of telling them, “Well, actually I don’t need to see that tourist attraction that everyone else is going to see.” I’m no there for that, right? “I’m there to do a specific story and actually this is what I need. I need to make sure that I see this, this, this and that” right? That is extremely important and especially if you’re sort of doing, you know, if you are just starting to get into this work and the press trips, it can be intimidating to say that, right? 

Because you’re just so excited that somebody or you know, a tourism board is working with you and they’re covering all the flights, all the hotels, all the transportation, which as everyone knows, it is not a small expense, right? So they’re investing a lot of money into this process and so, you know, it can be intimidating to say, “Well, actually no. I’m not going to go to this tourist attraction. I need something else.” 

[0:18:21.8] But that is where the communication becomes really critical, right? Because at the end of the day, you and the tourism board, you have the same vision for the outcome and the outcome is a published story in a magazine or in a publication that you as the creator can be proud of and the tourism board can check that box for coverage, for spreading the word about their destination, right? 

So at the end of the day, you both want the same thing but sometimes you don’t get there in the same way and that is sort of what I have experienced here in preparing for this trip because there was a lot of back and forth on, “Well, which sites I do need to see, which sites I don’t need to see?” Tourism boards usually like pack a lot of activities into a day and you know, we were just discussing that in the Circle with one of our members. 

She just went to her first ever press trip, congratulations by the way, and you know, it was a packed experience. Absolutely packed, so you have to sort of advocate for yourself, you know? In many, in most cases but especially in this case here, you have to advocate for yourself and you have to tell them, “No, this is what I need. I know the story that I want to make and this particular tourist attraction that you’re taking me to, it has nothing to do with that.” 

Then on top of that, another layer here is that I am going on this assignment as a photographer, right? So I am producing a photographic story, meaning, I will be taking pictures and to take pictures, I need as a travel photographer, I need the best light and that means early morning shoots and late afternoon shoots, right? We don’t want to do it in harsh daylight but again, the tourism board doesn’t necessarily understand that because they’re used to dealing with writers. 

[0:20:05.2] For writers, it doesn’t really matter what time of the day you’re there for a visit, right? You’re just there and so a lot of the visits that they have scheduled for me with these makers and artisans, they were all literally during the day like 12:00, 1 PM and I was like, “Oh, we need to reschedule some of these because I am just not going to be able to produce good photos in that light” you know? I mean, I’m going to try my best for sure but it is just not going to be ideal and so that was a lot of that back and forth as well because you know, I needed some earlier visits or later visits than what they were offering me and then they had to in turn, go out and then speak to all these people that they are arranging the visits to. So there is a lot of moving parts in all of these but finally, we got through it. We got through it, we got the itinerary together, it’s all finalized, I reviewed it, it looks great, I am super excited. I will be in country in a very short time and of course, I will be updating you as we go along as well. 

So the trip is a couple of days away, I am flying this weekend and I’ve started packing for the trip already and as I’m packing, I’ve sort of have a couple of realizations that I wanted to make sure that I share with you as well as part of this behind the scenes look of everything that is going on. 

[0:21:29.7] First of all, I am so incredibly grateful for this opportunity and for doing this work. You know, every time this happens, when I am about to go on a trip and create a story that I have sort of conceived in my mind, a story that excites me, a story that I can’t wait to share with the world, I just really pause and pinch myself because sometimes I still can’t believe that this is my life, you know? 

This is my reality. From six years ago when I was a corporate employee dreading work every morning and dreading the life that was in front of me for the rest of my life and going from there to this, where I’m literally doing something that I’m just so excited about every single day. It floors me every time and you never get used to it. That’s the other thing, you know, you never get used to it and you never take it for granted. 

You know, maybe what I’ve shared with you so far in this episode, maybe it sounded a little bit, “Oh, she’s frustrated. Oh, there is so much this and that, you know, there is so much communication, so much back and forth,” and sometimes in the moment it can feel this way for sure but still, when you zoom out and look at the bigger picture and start packing for the trip as I’m doing right now, you really see that, oh my goodness, this is what I get to do. This is my work, this is my life, you know? That’s just really so incredible! 

And the other thing that really dawned on me as I am preparing for this trip and packing and all of that is that hello, imposter syndrome! Hello, my friend. I thought it was long gone from me honestly, you guys, but it’s not. It’s right here and how I found it this time, how I found it manifesting this time is that I am over preparing so much. 

[0:23:13.0] I’ve got new gear. I’ve bought some things that I probably don’t need like extra filters, like a tripod, which a tripod is actually an interesting conversation because I had a tripod when I started six years ago and I took it on trips and I just never took it out. I never used it and it was so heavy and I would lug it around everywhere and I never used it because just the kind of photography I do, it’s not long exposure. It is not night time, I don’t need a tripod honestly. So that was my old tripod, I stopped using it. 

And as this trip is coming up as I am packing and as I am looking into it, I all of a sudden felt that I needed a tripod again because real professional photographers, they come with tripods, you know? Well, it is not, you know, of course that’s not the only thought that went to my mind and why I’ve eventually ended up getting a new tripod. 

I also sort of evaluated what kind of photography I will be doing on this trip and I am not going only to Germany, I am also going to Kazakhstan right after Germany actually and in Kazakhstan, I will be doing some landscape photography and maybe a bit of longer exposure for which I will need a tripod and I was also thinking to do like a self-portraits in Kazakhstan because the whole idea of sort of the work that I’m doing in Kazakhstan is returning to the country and exploring the country that I actually haven’t seen in a very long time. So I want to capture some self-portraits in that vein, so I objectively, I do need a tripod. 

But still, I noticed that I have all of these feelings that I am not ready. I am not prepared. I don’t have enough gear and you know, I started investigating MD filters, which is again, something that I never used before because I don’t really do that kind of landscape photography. 

[0:24:59.6] But anyway, so I actually realized at the end of this process after I bought the tripod, after I got the filters and everything that this was probably my imposter syndrome manifesting a little bit where I just needed to be so over-prepared, right? To feel like I am ready to do this work. 

And you know guys, I’ve done this work before. I have done this work, you know, I have nothing to prove and I have nothing to worry about but the imposter syndrome still shows up and that’s actually the reason why I am sharing this with you is because you know, this is a journey that never ends in some ways. This journey of facing your imposter syndrome or meeting your imposter syndrome face to face, it is a journey that never ends. 

I am much better at now recognizing it when it shows up and you know, lovingly and kindly just telling some things to myself that I don’t have to worry. I will be alright, I know what I am doing and I am a professional but yeah, imposter syndrome is a real friend of ours, right? It shows up often but you know, it’s alright. I got my tripod, I got my gear now, so I will be okay. 

Now of course, I’m just joking. I know I will be okay and anyway, I am super excited to be heading out to Germany, to the Black Forest region and to pursue some of these stories and to meet all of these amazing people, craftsman and artisans that live and work in that area and that’s really the work that excites me the most. 

You know, when I get to do those kind of stories, I am really, really excited. So I can’t wait, I am getting on a plane in a few days and I will say hello to you from Germany when I’ll be there and that will be the next step in this journey, so see you guys soon. Wish me luck.

[GERMANY TRIP]

[0:26:46.2] YD: So I’m here in Germany now and it’s been a nonstop couple of days. It’s becoming more difficult for me to hit the ground running as soon as I land. I definitely felt it this time, so I need to reduce these crazy flights and the crazy schedule that I have. So that’s one more reason I am excited about moving to Barcelona soon and when that happens, I’ll definitely do an episode and talk more about that. Still you know, I love my job so much. I met some interesting and passionate and curious people in this trip and I really can’t wait to put the story together. 

I am having another pinch me moment as I am going through all the interviews and all the locations on the trip. Is this really what I get to do? Is this really my job? Yes. Yes, it is, you know? 

Today, I had a really fascinating conversation with [Engel Has 0:27:38.7] a craftsman I met in a town of Gutach, the birthplace of cuckoo clocks in the Black Forest region. He took his family business, [Romback on Has 0:27:48.5], from a traditional cuckoo clock making, which was getting out of style and people were no longer having these clocks in their homes and in their living rooms to something that’s relevant again through modern designs. 

That’s just such a cool story, I can’t wait to share that bit of the story with the readers of the magazine. So in this sound byte, you’re about to hear I asked Engel about the spirit of the Black Forest, what does it mean for him and why is it special to him. His answer was amazing. 

[INTERVIEW]

[0:28:20.6] EN: Okay, I am a Black Forest man. I love to be in the Black Forest. 

[0:28:25.1] YD: Why? 

[0:28:25.8] EH: Because I need to get a little light on it because I am also really still thinking man. I do my meditation work since 40 years every day and so when I walk through the forest, I sometimes can feel the energy, the little hidden whatever, gnomes and it’s the Black Forest from my feeling, from my taste is it’s an enormous energy place. 

[0:28:53.3] YD: I felt it actually when I first I stopped took, you know, outside of the car, came out of the car and I felt the energy. I felt something here. 

[0:29:02.6] EH: I think that is also the reasons that we have so many tourists coming. Work right, people come to the Black Forest since decades to make – 

[0:29:10.3] YD: Since after that movie that came out in 1950 or whatever, right? 

[0:29:13.2] EH: Okay, that’s a yes, that’s what made – that is true, definitely. People come here, they spend a lot of money in some places, they walk, they hike, you see a bicycle or whatever or they just be here just to feel it. I think that’s from my thinking, that is proof that millions of people over the last year have came to the Black Forest that from myself, a proof of this energy. 

If it wouldn’t be like that, we have in Germany, we have others. We have the heart, we have wooden vibe – 

[0:29:43.4] YD: Yeah, you have other [inaudible 0:29:43.9] and other [inaudible 0:29:45.6]

[0:29:46.0] EH: The [inaudible 0:29:46.9] but that’s compared to the Black Forest, in here we have 10 times more tourist, at least 10 times more because there is more than just you can see. And of course, we have this typical Black Forest houses with better roof and we have – I believe it’s the energy, yes. 

[0:30:05.4] YD: I would love for you to sort of elaborate on that but also tell me what do you think about it because how I understand it is that there’s somehow an obsession with time. I mean, cuckoo clock, it keeps time but you also tell me that in the forest, time feels different. It is not the time that you need to be here earlier like time kind of stretches in the forest. 

[0:30:26.2] EH: Do you know the Greek Antique mythology? There are two gods of time. 

[0:30:31.7] YD: Kronos and…

[0:30:32.7] EH: Kronos and Kairos, exactly and one time is tik-tik-tik, so the pendulum of the [inaudible 0:30:40.6] the other times, it’s the correct time. It is a feeling of time, know it’s a moment or it’s the best time to do. This is Kairos and this is what I have the feeling, the cuckoo clock brings those together. It brings to step-by-step the chromatic time of course because it shows the time. 

It has a pendulum kickback but a clock like this is more than just a time piece. It is a kind art work. Even the old ones, even in 750 before example, it used to be a piece of art. So the feeling of the Kairo, of the clockmaker, the energy, we’ve talked about energy, the energy is in this piece of art, in this timepiece and if you walk through the forest and if you could see all of these whatever, all of these nature, skillful creatures who are definitely living there, if you cannot see them, they give you a feeling of time. 

They give you a feeling of losing problems sometimes but this is nature. It’s of course not only the Black Forest but it is in the Black Forest definitely and there are of course special places, these peak rocks or whatever, you know, you can sit and yeah and your mind will stop or at least become slow and this is what I prefer. 

[0:32:06.5] YD: That’s beautiful. That’s a great ending for my story. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:32:13.9] YD: You know, when I heard Engel speak about the different qualities of time, it hit me, this is one of the reasons why I do and love this job. It’s because when I am out here, I am living in that second time, the Kairos time not the Kronos time. Someone described it as being in a state of flow and there is nothing else, absolutely nothing else I’d rather be doing on this earth. 

It is my hope that when you’re listening to this episode and to other episodes of our podcast and then getting inspired to go out there and pursue your own dreams, your own stories. You are living in a time of Kairos as well. 

I hope you enjoyed this episode my friends and if you did, please, do let me know by leaving our show a review on Apple Podcast or by letting us know on social media. We are at Travel Media Lab and In Search of Perfect on Instagram. 

This is still an experimental format for our show to be taking you behind the scenes of my travel assignments like that. So your feedback in this case is really important because this is how I’ll know if we should continue doing episodes like this or not. 

Thank you so much for listening to us today and I’ll see you next week. 

[END]