S7 E73: Editor Insights Pt.2

Get the show’s transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] LK: I think, a lot of freelancing or a lot of being a writer in any capacity is developing a slightly thicker skin. But I'm not going to lie, anytime I get a rejection, it hurts. I have to mope about it for the best part of the day. Exactly, it's learning, it's not taking it personally.

The other part of that as well is the phrasing that I always tell myself don't censor myself. If you haven't sent the idea, you don't know how the editor is going to respond. You have no clue. Maybe they'll accept it within 10 minutes. Let them be the gatekeeper because that is their job and their role. Don't censor yourself, because you think something might happen. You have no idea what's going to happen. It could be your big break into the publication that you've always wanted, but you don't know, “Oh, it sounds so cliche.” You don't know unless you try, but it's true. Don't censor yourself.

[0:00:52] YD: Welcome to The Travel Media Lab Podcast. I'm your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer, entrepreneur, community builder, and a firm believer that every one of us can go after the stories we've always wanted to tell with the right support, encouragement, and structure. I'm on a mission to help women storytellers everywhere break into and thrive in the travel media space. If you're ready to ditch your fears to the side, grow your knowledge and confidence and publish your travel stories, you're in the right place. Let's go.

[OVERVIEW]

[0:01:29] YD: Welcome back, everyone to The Travel Media Lab Podcast. If you're listening to this live, somewhere in mid-October, I am on my way from Austria to Jordan and sending you lots of love and sunshine from the sunny Jordanian capital, Amman. I hope you enjoyed the first part of our mini-series editor insights that we released last week, in which we spoke to editors Ashlea Halpern, Nikki Vargas, and Ashley Halligan. If you haven't, do definitely check that one out as well. There are lots of wisdom moments packed into that episode.

Today. I'm sharing with you part two of this mini-series and this episode is a must-listen for anyone who dreams of seeing their name on the pages of travel magazines. That's how much insight and practical information is packed into this episode. We're talking to Sarah Khan, an accomplished travel journalist for The New York Times, Travel and Leisure, Bon Appetit, and the more, whose most recent role was Conde Nast Traveler’s Middle East Editor-in-Chief. We're also talking to Lauren Keith, a freelance travel writer, editor, and guidebook author, whose work has been published in Lonely Planet, Smithsonian Magazine, Atlas Obscura, AFAR, and more. Lauren also worked as Lonely Planet's editor for the Middle East and North Africa.

In today's conversation, we really go so deep on topics like how Sarah finds story ideas, the difference between being a freelancer and editor, advice on breaking into this industry, and what editors really want from freelancers. We also talk about ways you can start developing your network of editors, what is the most misunderstood part of being a freelancer and a struggling journalist, what the editors look for in a pitch, and why Lauren tries to give everyone a chance. Listen on to find out what writing has to do with the work of a coal miner, and why we shouldn't censor ourselves.

Remember, if anything that you'll hear today resonates particularly well, be sure to go and check out full episodes with each of these editors, where they go even deeper into their path to where they are today. All right, let's get started on this episode.

[SARAH KHAN]

[0:03:48] YD: How do you in general find your story ideas? Because I think for both you and I, for people who travel for work most of the time, we always want to make sure that we have a story, multiple stories out of every single trip that we take. Do your story ideas, do they happen naturally to you? Or is there more of a process that you follow before a trip where you're like, “Okay, I want to write – I want to have five stories about Molotov or whatever that is?

[0:04:17] SK: I obviously just started this role recently. Now my mandate is very different. But when I was a freelancer, I had a bit more flexibility, because I had – the world was my oyster, as far as which types of publications I could play certain ideas at. I just in that role, was able to just let my curiosity guide me. What am I interested in? What do I want to know about? For instance, I was always curious – and a lot of it relates to the news and what's happening in the world. There was a point where we were hearing a lot of stories about Islamaphobia and things like that in Europe. That just made me really curious about Bosnia, because Bosnia is a Muslim country where their indigenous Muslims have been there for hundreds of years, but it's part of Europe in the heart of Europe.

I was just like, well, we keep hearing about Muslims are not from here, but what's it like in a country where Muslims are from there and have historically been from there? I think that was what I did a lot of just as a freelancer. I was like, what am I interested in? What am I curious about? What do I want to know about? Then after that, the next step would be, and who would be interested in this story. In that case, The New York Times was interested in that story.

Now, obviously, my mandate is a little different, because I am the Editor-in-Chief of Conde Nast Traveler Middle East, which obviously services this part of the world, the Middle East, the GCC, and broader environments around here, and then the diaspora as well. That's why now I try to – obviously, there's a mix of newsy things that are relevant, things happening in the region. I also where possible, try to look at the world through a lens that might be of interest to this part of the world, where it should probably be interesting. I would think, anyone who's interested in Europe would be fascinated by some of the unexpected cultural exchanges that happened in Malta, but it's an Arab legacy in Europe that you don't really think about that much, that is where it's the only Semitic language in the European Union.

If you speak Arabic and you speak a Roman’s language, you actually will understand a lot of Maltese. I think, that's where now I try to think of more my readership first, and what would be a disservice to them, and then go from there. It's an interesting shift in how I approach my storytelling now.

[0:06:20] YD: Yeah, for sure. Actually, related to that, I was curious. Like we mentioned, you recently became an editor-in-chief, again, congratulations, by the way. It's incredible an achievement. Before that, you were a freelancer for, I believe, eight years or so. How do you think your time as a freelancer in travel media has prepared you for this next stage in your career?

[0:06:43] SK: Well, I think it's just helped me really get a lot of different insight into how different publications work and what works and what doesn't, and what I like about editors, and what I don't like about editors, and try to be the best editor I can be. Unfortunately, it's still a work in progress, because I'm still very overwhelmed by a lot of it. I can't say I'm as responsive to emails as I'm hoping to become, based on my own experience on the other side of the computer.

[0:07:05] YD: Oh, my God. I love that. Because that's such a big gripe for us, right?

[0:07:09] SK: I know. Trust me, I was leading the charge of going about it and I hate that I have not been as on top of my inbox as I want to be, but I'm trying. I think, the other thing that's been an interesting shift for me that I'm – diversity, and travel writing has been a very important passion of mine, but I am one human who has one particular lens on the world. What's exciting for me now is, as an editor, I can actually champion that vision and really try my best to bring in a broader range of writers. While before, I just was able to – and it was great. I loved every minute of being a freelancer. Well, except for the parts where editors weren't replying to my emails.

There’s a lot I loved about freelancing, but it was also one of the things that were cool about it I just got to write the stories I wanted to write at the end of the day. Obviously, it's not as simple and romanticizes it a bit, but you get to focus on things you want to do. Whereas here, I get to find ideas that excite me, that I'm curious about and then try to think of who the right writer might be for that, or just finding voices that I like and just sending cold emails like, “Hey, I like that story you did,” and inviting them to pitch.”

I think that's something, as a writer, I saw this void and this need for a broader range of voices. There's only so much I could do and so many people I could recommend. I wasn't empowered to actually make changes. I feel like that's something I'm hoping to do a lot more while I'm on this side of it, because of a need I saw as a freelancer.

[0:08:26] YD: Oh, I love that so much, Sarah, because it's been my experience too that – I'm curious to hear your take on it, that the travel media industry, in general, is such an insular space that, if you're not already part of that, or somehow connected, or plugged in, if you don't know the right people, if you're not in that space, then it's so hard for many of us to break into it. I know, you and your co-founders have started Travel is Better in Color, which is an amazing platform that features all the different voices in the industry. I'm curious, what would you say to someone who is looking from the outside looking into that, and they have aspirations, but then also, they're like, “I don't know anybody in this industry? What do I do?”

[0:09:09] SK: Yeah. Well, I think first, obviously, it's been very problematic for a long time. I also try to have a bit of empathy for the editors, where yes, it's been a big blind spot. That should not be okay, and I'm glad that people are waking up to it. Also, it's easy for anyone to fall into a comfort zone, right? We've worked with one or two writers, and you know they're good and reliable, as opposed to going out of your way to seek out new voices, and you don't know what you're going to get necessarily. We're all doing multiple jobs now in publishing.

I can see why it's easy to fall into that familiar zone of writers and that limited pool and network that you've grown over time. Yes, at the same time, it's incredibly intimidating if you're an outsider. I think, now is probably a better time than most for writers looking to break in, who might consider themselves outsiders or not have the right network or the right context, because I think editors have been waking up to their blind spots and realizing that they really do need to do better.

That's part of where something like Travel is Better in Color comes in, where we have been – I mean, we all have full-time other jobs, so there's only so much we can do. It was our way of showing other editors, and a lot of top editors do follow that platform. Showing them, there are really talented, diverse writers, photographers, publicists, and people broadly in the travel industry, who've been doing their thing and are very accomplished and very well-known and doing it in English language mediums around – or English language publications around the world for a long time.

Just making it a little bit more accessible, where here are a bunch. Just go to our Instagram, you'll see a little bios. We get to know who's where, what they're doing, who they've written for. Obviously, that's for people who are somewhat more established, because they've been published in places. We're just highlighting some of their work. I think editors are very receptive to discovering new writers. It's a good way of making it easier for them in a bit and making their job easy. For people who are newer and on the earlier end of the spectrum, I think editors are also just more open to hearing ideas from different people that are new than they might have been five, or 10 years ago.

Especially with COVID, and all the travel restrictions that are constantly changing, this is a really good time for writers who are based in different countries and regions that aren't New York or London around the world, that are able to potentially – places that say, previously, in the glory days of travel writing, an editor might have just helicoptered in their favorite writer to go to Johannesburg and do something. Now, with all the unfortunate changing restrictions, they're more likely to commission somebody already based in Johannesburg, which is probably, in many cases, the best person to tell that story.

I think if you are somebody who's either starting out or doesn't have contacts in some of the top publications, but you're based in an unusual destination for them, not to say there's anything unusual or exotic about the destination, because travelers, we hate the word exotic and what that implies. More just like, if it's a place that's not easily accessible to or commonly on the radar of a travel editor and sitting in New York. This is probably your best chance to actually get their attention.

[0:12:01] YD: I love that. I really love that, Sarah. Just to point this out to our listeners, first of all, Khadija Farah, whom we had on the podcast several times now, she’s a Kenya-based photojournalist.

[0:12:13] SK: Yeah, yeah. I’ve seen her work. I love her.

[0:12:14] YD: You've seen her. Yeah. She talked about that, too, that in the pandemic, she's gotten so much more work than she ever did before, exactly for that reason that you just mentioned. I want to point out to our listeners, what Sarah just said is that editors are open to new ideas, and new voices. A lot of times, I see that women who are starting out in this industry have so many doubts about whether they have something legitimate to say when they're first pitching somebody. I just wanted to reinforce the idea that editors are actually open to new ideas and new voices. If you're watching this as a video later on YouTube, Sarah is an incredibly approachable and accessible and amazing human. She's not scary. She doesn't bite. So, it’s like that. They're humans just like us.

[0:13:06] SK: All we really want is a good story. If you have a good story, tell it. I mean, obviously, that simplifies it a lot. There's a lot more that goes into it. I think the other important thing is, if you are new, or you're just getting the courage to pitch somebody, cold pitch somebody you haven't worked with before and you don't hear back, or you don't get immediate yes, is you cannot take it personally. It’s not a testament to you, or your talent, or your lack thereof or anything. It is literally, it could be as simple as you just – Zanzibar story, and they just did a 10-page feature on Zanzibar, so they're not going to revisit it. Then maybe, they just didn't get a chance to reply to your email, because again, email inboxes are always a nightmare.

I think that's the other thing. You have to have a bit of thick skin, especially if you're a freelancer, and you just can't sell yourself short and tell yourself, “Oh, this person didn’t reply. My career is over. I must be terrible at it.” I say this as somebody who did that throughout my freelance career, even when I was getting the best balance of my life. There are a lot of self-doubts that go into this. Even when I was interviewing for this role, I was just like, “What am I doing?” It’s like, wait, I’ve earned this, but for whatever reason, I think a lot of us get intimidated and talk ourselves out of things. When it comes to pitching new editors, you should always go out there. All it takes is one great pitch to catch someone's eye. If it doesn't, pitch it somewhere else. Somebody will be interested.

[0:14:23] YD: I love that. Sarah. I love that. That's exactly what I talk about all the time on this podcast, exactly. Don't interpret all the rejections, or lack of responses as a personal judgment on you, your work, your worth, the worth of your work, or any of that. You have to grow a really thick skin in this career.

[0:14:41] SK: Yeah. I mean, I'll say that as somebody that I think when I was freelancing, I think, I was considered fairly prolific and rather successful, as far as freelancing goes. I'm very proud of the career I have. I had so many people that wouldn't reply or editors I've worked with many times and had good relationships with. Always, the instinct is to take it personally. I often took it personally. Literally, it happens to everyone, even the people you're seeing that are being published everywhere you want to be published, even people who are starting out.

It's just the way it is. It's not great, and that's why I said, my goal is to be a more responsive editor, even if I am turning someone down, which again, still a work in progress. Yeah, I think it's just you need to know that it's not you and you should always try somewhere else, until – Because you don't know what the secret formula is for some of these magazines and publications and what really they're looking for at any given time. 

[0:15:30] YD: Yes. Actually, on that point, I think, one of the hopeful signs that I see in the industry when it comes to opening up those insulated spaces is that I was shocked to see this year, how many publications for the first time ever put their pitching guidelines online. Where before, it was like, you had no idea what AFAR was looking for, for example, unless you had a foot in the door already. Condé Nast US as well just recently put theirs up. It's like, well, that's great. Now you have the guidelines.

[0:16:01] SK: I used to feel like, getting an editor's email address was a state secret. You had to learn all these complicated ways to Google things and find it. Now they're literally, like here are the pitches, here's the right editor for that section. I mean, it's amazing. It's a whole new world right now, I think, and for people who are trying to get their foot in the door. That wasn't even possible a few years ago.

Whenever anybody asks me for advice for freelance travel writing, I actually say, if you have the ability, the privilege, the chance, the opportunity to move overseas, somewhere less covered by US and UK publications, do it. Because that was actually a huge turning point for me professionally. I obviously had been working as a journalist for a few years. I've worked in travel magazines. I built a bit of a portfolio and all that, but I was still fairly junior to mid-level at that point. Moving to South Africa and going freelance, I gave myself a year to see how it would go. Then, if I needed to, I'd look for something more full-time.

Within a year, I was writing for all my dream publications. That was because I mean, and I know in some ways, I had a leg up, because I've worked in New York media before. Honestly, most of my pitches that landed in that first year, were through cold pitching, where I just reach out to a new editor who never heard of me and be like, “Hi, I'm based in Cape Town. I have XYZ ideas.” Like I was saying earlier, where if you're somewhere unique and not that often covered by these editors, you have a leg up already. I, living in Cape Town, had the ability to really tap into nuanced story ideas that were happening on the ground there. I started by focusing on Cape Town and Southern Africa. Then, when I had the relationship with the editors, I'd be like, “All right. Well, I want to go to Estonia.” I just pitched all over the world.

I think it was a great foot in the door for me, establishing myself with my regional expertise, and then building those relationships and taking them beyond. Even when I moved back from South Africa, I wasn't just the South African girl. I actually had a blog back then called The South AfriKhan. Get it?

[0:17:53] YD: Yes. Yes.

[0:17:56] SK: Yeah. I was worried when I moved back to New York, like, what if I'm just a South AfriKhan, can I actually transition this? I think, that's when I built those relationships with those initial pitches, and then I just transitioned to other coverage. Long story short, if you have the opportunity to live somewhere unique – again, I say that just in reference to what editors might be looking for, or have access to, because it's obviously much more expensive for them to send a writer to Cape Town than it is to have somebody who's got on the ground intel. My intel, as someone based in Cape Town was obviously much better than someone sitting in New York googling frantically before their trip, right?

For me, that was honestly – I feel like, that experience really helped me leapfrog ahead a lot as a freelancer, so that I really – if I was in New York and fighting for the same stories as all the other freelance writers in New York, I don't think I would have had anywhere near as much success as I did in that stage of my career.

[0:18:44] YD: What kinds of stories does Sarah Khan, Editor-In-Chief of Conde Nast Traveler Middle East looks for?

[0:18:51] SK: Oh, that is a great question. I'm still every day trying to figure that out, because there's so much to tell. It's such a dynamic part of the world. We only have a bi-monthly magazine to tell it. I feel like it’s been – it felt a little bit limiting in that sense, where I feel like, “Oh, my God. I want to commission everyone, everything.” I think, the things that stand out to me are just really strong local coverage of this region. We know Dubai really well, because we're based in Dubai in the UAE, but I want to hear more from Oman. I want to hear more from Jordan. I want to hear more from Egypt, Tunisia.

Just really thoughtful, nuanced stories of the kinds of stories I like to write as a freelancer, I want to empower other people to write for me from this entire region. Just focusing on the arts and the design, and just entrepreneurship. There's so much happening. It's such a dynamic, really exciting time to be in this part of the world. I really want to showcase that as best as I can. Then, I'm also trying to shape our international coverage, where I really take into account what stories might be of interest to readers who are of Middle Eastern or diaspora backgrounds, or what would be of service to them.

That's part of why I did the Malta story, because I think, that's broadly an interesting angle, and I hope other people like it, too. I think, like I was saying earlier, that's something that is a legacy of this part of the world over there. I want to do a bit more of that. Not that every story needs to have that angle, but I'd love to look through the world through that, filtering the rest of the world through that lens as well, where those stories are relevant, because there are some really interesting legacies around the world that I think would be really fun to spotlight. Then also, just travel stories and trends. Send me everything, guys.

[0:20:32] YD: Sarah is open to pitches, you guys. There you go. There are two things that stood out for me when you were talking just now. One is, it's actually a great idea when you're approaching a new editor that you want to pitch with something. Look at their work, if it's available online. Look at the kinds of stories they've created in the past. That's a great indication of what stories they like to see as well. The other thing was that I feel that excitement that you're talking about in the region as well. The past several years that I've been coming to Jordan, that's what I keep seeing. There's so much creative energy here, but particularly in Amman.

It's so exciting that, and I feel like, a lot of audiences outside of the region have no idea, or they have a very different idea of what some of these cities in the Middle East look like. That's partially why we're here. We're partially here to change some of those narratives as well. That's really exciting.

[0:21:27] SK: I think, that is honestly one of the main things that drew me to this opportunity is just this part of the world has been so misunderstood and underserved for so long that, yes, I want to tell stories that first and foremost, are in service to this readership. I also want to show these different nuanced sides of this part of the world. This is a massive part of the world. It's everywhere from the GCC to north – to the Levant, to North Africa. To be able to tell these stories in a global way that other people will also see some of the change and the interesting things coming out of here.

[0:21:57] YD: Definitely.

[LAUREN KEITH]

[0:21:59] YD: I guess, the question then is, how do you develop that network of editors? You said, you didn't really know that many editors. You knew a lot of writers, but not necessarily editors. How do you get to know them? Where do you go? Or how do you develop that?

[0:22:15] LK: It's a tough one. It takes a lot of time. There are several ways. Being introduced by a fellow writer contact is always really good. If there's a project that someone passes on to you, because they think that they don't have time, or think you'd be better suited. Then just doing your absolute best work and show the editor what you're capable of. Networking events, when those exist, I know they really went away during the pandemic, obviously. There used to be quite a few of those in London. Either meeting with tourism boards, or just happy hour drinks, that thing. Most of it is from other writer contacts and other friends who are doing freelancing in the same way that I am.

Sometimes it's even been editors passing on my information to other editors. It really depends, but I hate the word networking so much with just as an introvert and shy person, nothing terrifies me more than going into a room full of strangers and being like, “Hi, I'm Lauren. I'm doing this.” Oh, man. That's just my worst nightmare. But it leads to good things. It leads to connections and it's worth doing.

[0:23:31] YD: It is. It really is. You are reinforcing what I also believe, and I'm what I have come to know as the truth in this industry, but in many other industries as well is that at the end of the day, connections really matter. Who you know really matters. I stepped into this industry quite naively. I didn't know anyone. I was like, I don't need to know anyone. My work can speak for itself.

I wish that was really true. At the end of the day, it's not to say that editors will only work with those they know, or that there is some favoritism. Although, sometimes that can also happen that editors get comfortable with working with the same writers again and again. I think it's more just natural human nature that we like to put a face to the name. We are more comfortable reaching out to someone with work, or opportunities, somebody whom we know, somebody who has a connection. I think it's important and let this be a warning sign to anyone else who's listening today that don't be like me. Don't think that you can just do it on your own. You do need people. You do need connections. You do need to start reaching out and making those connections.

I also hate networking. I find it to be oftentimes – I'm not used to it. I come from a culture where it's not really a thing that you do. I always felt like, well, “I don't want to boast about myself. I don't want to sell myself,” so how do I make it naturally? I think, if it's more about your curiosity, your passion for travel, and you're there connecting with other people who are just as passionate about travel and storytelling and that curiosity, then I think it can be a nicer experience, I guess.

[0:25:13] LK: Exactly. It's an intimidating situation to start, but actually, the conversation is actually really easy. People are there because they can talk about travel for hours and you do. Even if nothing else comes out of it, except chatting about all of the previous trips you've taken, then yeah, you'd be surprised what comes out of that, actually.

[0:25:32] YD: Definitely. I'm wondering, you have this amazing body of work. Obviously, you’ve been working at Lonely Planet, but also been published there. Smithsonian Magazine, which we will link to. Atlas Obscura, AFAR, many other magazines as well. What would you say is the most misunderstood part of being a travel writer and on top of that, being a freelancer?

[0:25:55] LK: Ooh, that's such a good question. I battle this all the time talking to people who are not in this industry. The first part, we've touched on a little bit, where people think that it's like, this is vacation. Again, I'm not complaining about it. But it's work. It's very hard. It's time-consuming. It drains your energy. In a beautiful, wonderful way, but it is something that you still have to go away and recharge from. The other part about being a travel writer is that you feel like you have to make a story out of everything that you're doing. I struggle with that sometimes.

Every single place you go, so we were talking before I was just visiting a friend in New Mexico and it's like, “Oh, what story is this?” I drove there. “Should I go through certain towns on this road trip down there? Should I do this? Should I do this?” It's like, no. Just let it be. You don't have to write about absolutely everything. Sometimes it can feel like you're always working. It's not possible to switch it off. Again, it's such a privilege to say something like that, which I appreciate. This is the industry and this is what it's like.

Freelancing is a very curious one. I find that a lot of people still don't know fully what that means. My parents basically don't think I have the job, or that I do any work, which I guess is true, in a way. But I am my own business. I am my own company. I have too much work. I've had way too much work for at least six months now. They just see me sitting at their kitchen table, staring at a computer, and they're just like, “Why aren’t you doing something today?” Or I'm like, “Oh, I'm going to a coffee shop. I'm doing work. I’m not just going to sit there.”

Yeah, I don't think freelancing is really understood that well. People assume you're just not working, even though, I mean, across so many industries, a lot of it is looking at a computer screen. Yet, when I –

[0:28:01] YD: You really do that in the office, so that counts.

[0:28:04] LK: Exactly. Yeah. If you're doing that at home, then it's not a job. It's like, okay, sure. Yeah. I think, that the battle is convincing people. They're like, “Oh, what are you working on now? What are you doing?” No matter how many times I explain it, it just – Doesn't seem to make a dent.

[0:28:21] YD: God, I can relate to that so well. What you said about not being able to turn off and always looking for stories. Yeah, I feel that pressure all the time. I haven't had a trip where I just went just to explore and just be a traveler in such a long time. Even the last trip I did, which was like that, I was like, “No, I have to make a story out of it. I have to be efficient. I have to produce all these stories.”

I think it's actually a really important conversation to have that we need to have those moments where we just don't work. We're not there for a story. Were there for our own enjoyment, because then, how do you replenish that well of creativity, if you're not taking that time? I found that to be true for myself. When I'm traveling all the time, where I'm traveling on assignment and doing all these things, after a while, I'm so burnt out. No new ideas are coming to me. It becomes so hard to be writing those stories. I just feel I need that time to replenish myself. It's so important not to get into that hole, really.

[0:29:26] LK: Yeah, absolutely. After this Egypt project, slightly different, but it's just such a big project. I was in Egypt for six weeks. Then probably be back in writing non-stop for six weeks. 12 hours a day, seven days a week, because those were the deadlines and I had to – it was a book that hasn't been published since 2009. It was a little bit of writing it from scratch. I've struggled with the work-life balance part of it for sure. Having a salaried job, I think, or an in-house job made that a little bit easier.

It's always something to remind myself of as well, and something that you – you get so far down that line like you were saying that you're like, you don't get burnt out, or it's time to recharge. It's just about learning yourself and knowing when that point is coming and ideally being able to see a little bit further in advance, instead of arriving and being like, “Oh, no. This is it. I am done. I am so burnt out.” It takes time and it takes learning yourself and what your limits are and what you can handle.

[0:30:32] YD: Yeah. I think, the other really practical consideration of that is that when we're not working, we're not earning, right? That's the pressure that you – I am really bad at this, especially lately, so many projects that I'm working on, that I haven't taken weekends off in a while. In several months, at least, I've been working through the weekends. Literally yesterday, I was like, “Yulia, I think you need to take this afternoon off, because yeah, you're reaching that point where you're going to be burned out pretty quickly.” I think, that's the rub, really, as a freelancer, as someone who works for yourself, and you don't have that salary is that we have this pressure that if we're not working, we're not earning.

Then on the flip side, figuring out, well, what can you do, so that when you're not working, you're still earning? That's a whole other conversation. We'll touch on it in the podcast in upcoming episodes as well. I'm curious to get your thoughts on that.

[0:31:25] LK: Yeah, exactly. It's such an interesting one with freelancing. The saying is always, it's feast or famine. There's always too much work or not enough/zero work. I've been lucky enough for these last few months that it's been a feast. It's still hard on that side of things, because it's like, okay, I don't know when these jobs will end. They could end tomorrow, and then that's it. I'm going to spend as much time as I can working on them right now. Then if they're like, okay, this project is done in two weeks, then it's like, okay, I've gotten as much experience and money out of this as I could. That's it, and on to finding new things.

Then it's like, “Ah. Well, this hasn't ended yet.” Then other stuff is coming in. It's all in the balance, and it will work itself out. It's definitely something you have to actively manage and figure out for yourself what works.

I love that aspect of it so much. I still love the editing side of things and that's what I spend a lot of my time doing. I have so much love and appreciation for people who make it as full-time freelance writers, because that is not me and not something I could ever do.

I love the background side of it more, the editing, the reading, the project management side of it. Sometimes I'll get these big ideas that I'm like, “Oh, I really want to write this and I want to make this happen, so I do.” The process of writing actually gives me a lot of anxiety. It feels like, I don't know, pulling my heart out and putting it down on a page, which I know is so dramatic. Some of the stuff I write is just top 10 lists and things like that. I’m like, “Who knows? Maybe this is going to win the Pulitzer Prize. No, I don’t. I don't think it is.”

I always want to put as much of myself in something as I can. Writing for me is a very emotional and energy-intensive process and I can't do it very often. I just haven't been trained in that way. That's why I prefer – and not even prefer exactly, but glad to have as the vast majority of my work and my time is actually spent editing, instead of writing.

[0:33:51] YD: I love that you're putting that fine point on this, because we talk with a lot of writers and photographers on the podcast. We have had interviews with editors as well, but I just really love going deeper into this distinction between the skills required for an editing profession, versus a writing one. By the way, most writers I speak to myself included, feel the same way that is like putting your heart out onto a page. It's really personal.

Regardless of what you're writing, my process, and I've shared this on the podcast before, but my process is the very first draft, it's really hard to put it on a page for me. It's so hard. The words are coming out so hard. What I've learned to do is I've learned to live hack, or hack my way into it with this process where I wake up really early at 4 a.m., 5 a.m., which is way earlier than usual. Before even having coffee or brushing my teeth, I sit down in front of a laptop, I put a song on repeat, the same song on repeat, and I just put everything I know about the story on the page. It takes me about an hour and it's like, everything comes out. Because at that point, your brain is not completely awake yet, so you're entering this flow state.

Then later in the afternoon, I'm sharper, whatever, that's when I'm editing. I can edit three, four, five, 10 times sometime and painstakingly about every single word that's there, and you read it and reread it. As you said, there's so much care that goes into these words and sentences that are the top 10 beaches, or whatever project. What I'm saying is don't worry, I think we're all feeling the same way about this process.

[0:35:37] LK: I would actually love, I don't know, some, I don't know, podcast series that you could do next is what people's writing process is. Because that is utterly fascinating. Just to hear that before you do it before you get up and do anything to get your day started, you sit down and write. I love that so much. My process is not even a process. Something that should take me one day to write. I don't know. I call that about 1,000 words because I don't think I have more than that in me per day. Something like, okay, it'll take me a day to write 1,000 words, but I needed the day before to freak out about it.

I sit there and complain to myself, and I'm like, I don't know why I signed up to do this. It's almost the stages of grief in a way, where it's – You're angry at yourself for doing it, then it's – I can't remember all of them, but the resignation and then the imposter syndrome sets in. This isn't my story to tell, and why am I the one doing this? At the end of the day, all I hope to produce out of that amount of time is an outline of the story. In an ideal world, the introduction would be there. At least, the bullet point outlines, maybe a few notes, like what you were saying like, just get down absolutely everything you can, even if it's not in complete sentences, or the phrasing that you end up using. At least all of the ideas are out of your head and onto the paper.

For some writers I've talked to, the introduction is always the hardest part, right? Because it's what has to hook the reader immediately and has to be your probably best-written paragraph of the entire thing. Some writers say, “Oh, I skip the introduction to start and then write the rest of it, and then come back to that at the very end.” I'm like, I can't. I can't do that. The introduction, tells me where the piece is going, even though – I know that you have the general outline in your head, but I just don't feel like I can flow and move on until that introduction is written. That will take me hours and hours. Then once that's done, the rest of it will come a little bit more naturally. I envy the people who can just skip that, move on, and then come back to it later.

[0:37:48] YD: Oh, my God. I love hearing about your process. By the way, I think for me the opening paragraph and also the closing sentence, and the last sentence of the piece are like, you seal the deal with it. I love your closing sentence in the Hegra story. Again, this is an invitation for everyone listening to check out this beautiful story that Lauren wrote, that we're referencing throughout today. Something you said about your process. Two things stood out to me. One is imposter syndrome.

Wow, guys. Listen to this. Lauren Keith, who is this established writer and editor, has been published in all these places, she's worked in all these places, and she goes through imposter syndrome, too, just like do all of us. We talk about impostor syndrome so much also in our membership and in this podcast. It's something that all of us deal with. How amazing. Honestly, it's amazing for me to hear that you deal with this too, because then it really tells me that, okay, it's not a real thing, right? The voice that tells me, it's not my story to tell, who am I? What am I doing? Why did I say yes to this? It's not a real voice. Because that voice is not just mine. That voice shows up in every head that's trying to do something amazing, right? How beautiful it is to realize that.

[0:39:03] LK: Exactly. It's so true. I haven't come to the full strategy as to what really works to even make that voice a little bit quieter sometimes. When do I start to ask myself those questions of why are you doing this? Why are you the person? Who are you? You're writing about Saudi Arabia, and you're from Kansas. You're from nowhere? Who are you? This is my passion. This is a story that hasn't been told yet.

We all as writers have our own different types of audiences. If only 50 people read this story, then maybe I've convinced one person out of those 50 to travel to Saudi Arabia, or to learn about the Nabataeans, or to awaken something in them that they're more interested in. I think that's what it all boils down to, at the end of the day, is that this is my passion and this is what I get to do. There's nothing wrong with me telling this story. I'm sure you've had it as well. It can be challenging in certain places in the world, in the Middle East. There are story ideas that I've had, or heard of and have backed away from, because I'm just like, “I love this story idea. I just don't think it's my story to tell. I would love to, but I think an Arab journalist or an Arab woman journalist should be the one telling that instead of me.”

[0:40:31] YD: Yeah. This is such a fine balance to walk, or fine line to walk, that nuance of knowing where it is your story and it's really just your imposter syndrome telling you it’s not – and where it's really not your story to tell, right? There is nuance in that. I think, that also with experience, you get better at figuring out which of the two you're looking at here. I agree. I go through that process all the time, too. Is this my story or not? I love how you brought it back your passion. You're writing about something you're passionate about. The way I put it always is what gives you the mandate to do this job?

Well, this is the answer. This is one of the answers. It's my passion for the Nabataeans. This is my passion about archaeology or history. It's the story that hasn't been told yet. I just really love that insight. For our listeners, also to take note of that when you are struggling and when you're hearing those voices, again, try to bring it back to that question. This is the passion that I'm writing about. That's why it's so important to always bring it back to that.

Oh, actually, and the last thing that I just wanted to tease out from what you said is the importance of knowing yourself and your process; so if you know if that you have a story of 1,000 words that's due next Friday, you know that you need two days. One of them will be the freakout day and the outline day, and the other one would be the day to write. How important is to know to have that knowledge, because now you can manage that. Hopefully, that also helps us be a little bit more easeful next time we're writing another story, because now you know, this is my process. This is what I go through. I always say that it's really important that you know how it is that your process works, because then you can manage it and you can prepare for that and hopefully, plan for them better.

[0:42:19] LK: Yeah, exactly. It takes time to know that. It's not just something that you realize. Only when those deadlines stack up, or you spend too long in the freakout process, instead of the actual writing process. It's something, as you were saying, you get to know yourself over time and it's like, okay, we've done this before. It's a mental preparation exercise to some extent, but it's not something that even I don't think unveils itself clearly and obviously, even the first few times you do it. It takes time.

Even if I know that day of freaking out and negative self-talk and imposter syndrome is stupid, I know it's stupid, and yet, it has to happen every single time. You just have to learn to give yourself that grace and that time and say, this is part of the whole thing. There will be a finished, beautiful piece at the end of it and this is what it takes to get there. That's okay.

[0:43:19] YD: Oh, I love that. I love that so much. I love that so much. In this career in your path, you've had to look at a lot of pitches, I imagine. Because you were a commissioning editor at Lonely Planet. Even as I understand it with your freelancing projects, now you're commissioning pitches and stories, too. I know this is a very broad question because it will depend on what exactly you're looking for, and what kind of projects. In broad terms, what do you look for in a pitch?

[0:43:49] LK: First and foremost, the person has followed the instructions that I set out in the call for pitches. If I've asked for two clips, or a whole portfolio, or an introduction to – a little bit about themselves and their experience in this place, you'd be really shocked at how many people don't actually follow those basic instructions. I used to be very nice and wrote back and said, “Ah, this isn't quite what I was looking for. Try again.” Now I've gotten a little bit more cutthroat after years of doing this. Just like, “No.” Straight to the trash. Not dealing with this.

[0:44:26] YD: Hey, sorry. Can we pause here for a second? Because this is really important, you guys, what we just heard from Lauren. I talk about this all the time, too. If your pitch doesn't quickly get to the point of what it needs to do, it's going to go to the trash. This is just the reality. Not because Lauren is some a bad person, but because Lauren has a lot of things to do. She has a lot on her plate. She gets so many pitches to come in, I imagine on a regular basis. I talk about this all the time, too. Look at the guidelines, like the pitching guidelines. Look at the instructions and the call for pitches. It's really important to follow that. I agree with you, many people don't. That's really important.

[0:45:07] LK: Definitely. The shorter the pitch, the better. Some editors might disagree with that. Obviously, it will depend on the publication as well. If you can't sum up the idea for your story in a couple of sentences, then you're probably not quite there yet with what the story needs to be. I wouldn't say a specific word count exactly, but maybe 150, or 200 words. If you've met all of the things that the editor has asked for in their call for pitches and been able, to sum up your story in a few sentences, that should do it. You don't need to go into super elaborate details.

You might not even need to call out the specific things, or places that you're going to highlight within the story, but just say, “Here is my idea.” Then if the editor does want more information and they're intrigued by those few sentences, then they'll ask for more and that's fine and you can provide it at that point. Yeah, do field a lot of pitches. I as an editor, I try to give everyone a chance. If someone doesn't have big-name publications behind them, that is absolutely fine. I know what it was like to start with nothing. To just be writing on a blog, or for friends, or, “Oh, I have clips from my high school, or college newspaper about something that's completely irrelevant to what I'm writing about now.” That's okay.

I think, it's just your style and your personality and attitude, that actually play a really big part in it. If someone is difficult – if a writer is difficult to work with, but they're an excellent writer, I don't care. I don't want to work with them. It's much easier to work with someone who maybe isn't as strong of a writer, but who is willing to learn and willing to take edits and feedback and go through that process. Yeah, I wish more editors would do that to just – to give people a chance.

On the other hand, I have been burned a million times over through various – just many, many, many rounds of edits, or even writers who have written for bigger publications and have some strong clips behind them. You realize that there's actually a lot of editing that went into that, and maybe the original submission wasn't quite as strong. Again, it's another skill that you learn over time, and through fielding and working with pitches and writers. You learn to look out for certain things. Yeah. I do my best to give a lot of people a chance to get them that foot in the door because everyone needs that.

[0:47:42] YD: Oh, I love that. I am so glad that you said that, Lauren. I hope everyone listening now paid attention to that as well. Because it's funny how you're reinforcing all the points that I always talk about as well. One of them is a lot of – because in the travel Media Lab community, in the membership, but also in the broader community, a lot of people are interested, but a lot of people are not pitching, are not reaching out, because they're like, “Well, I don't have any clips. I don't have any portfolio.” It’s a catch-22. You need to start pitching to start building the portfolio. How do you do that?

What I always say to them is that if you do your homework, if you go through the guidelines and instructions, if you follow that, and by the way, a lot of publications are now putting their instructions up online. It's much easier than when I was starting six years ago. That wasn't happening. If you do that, and you have a great idea that fits with this publication, or with this call for pitches, an editor worth their salt, and that's my reality, my big conviction that an editor worth their salt is not going to turn somebody away, because they don't have a big-name publication in their portfolio if the idea is great and if it fits. Wouldn't you agree?

[0:48:52] LK: Absolutely. Clips are like, it's an added bonus, but not the end all be all. If the idea is solid, that's what matters. That's the result at the end of the day. It doesn't matter what you've done for other publications. This is its own contained article. This is its own small project. While it matters what you have done previously and who else you've worked with, it's not a 100% of the deal.

[0:49:18] YD: It's giving me goosebumps. I love that. That's really wonderful. Oh, I'm so glad that we talked about this, because this is really a big barrier for a lot of people. Unless you start pitching, again, it's that catch-22. You're not going to be able to progress. Because how do we get better? We get better by doing the work. My original pitches, my original from my first couple of years in this path, I look at them now and I'm like, “Oh, I wrote that?” You improve through doing the work, and so it's so important that you start doing that.

[0:49:47] LK: Absolutely. One of my favorite things that I've ever read and I'm going to misquote. I will not quote it exactly correct, but it was something that Cheryl Strayed wrote. She was the author of Wild and a few other books. She has that, “Write like a motherfucker.” That just always sticks with me. There was a part in those series of articles, and it ties back into imposter syndrome as well, where she talks about practicing writing, and it's like doing sets and repetitions. It's a muscle that you exercise. Then she compares writing as a job, as a career to being a coal miner. She says something like, “Do you think the coal miner goes into the mine and just stands there is like, “Oh, I don't know. What am I doing here?” It's like, no. The miner just digs. You start digging and you get there.” I think, just repeating that to myself in my head is dig. You start going. The only way to get to the end is to start.

[0:50:49] YD: I love that. Oh, my God. That is awesome. Yeah, we are. We are like miners in some cases. That's true. We dig. It's interesting. Listen, we could probably have a whole conversation on, like you said, the writing process and the intricacies of that, because it's interesting how this works. Sometimes it is that hard. It's like pulling teeth. It's like you're digging through this mess to get to the other side. Sometimes I do feel I almost enter some highway and words just flow out of me. They're just been given to me from somewhere and they just come out. It's so interesting how sometimes that happens, too.

[0:51:28] LK: Yeah, absolutely. That's the ideal to reach. Maybe you have to do a little bit of digging to get there and then it comes. It's different for every piece I find. Some are being on that highway, and some are standing in the cave. You never quite know how it's going to go, but it's always a process.

[0:51:50] YD: Yeah, definitely. Well then, to close on that loop then, what would you say to someone who is maybe interested in writing, or pitching Lonely Planet, or pitching AFAR, or pitching any of these other publications and doesn't have this big portfolio to start with? If there's one thing you could tell them, what would you tell them?

[0:52:10] LK: Go out in the world. Read, write. These are the things that it takes to be a writer is to know other people's work, to see what's happening around you, to be curious about what's happening around you. It takes time. Just because an editor doesn't respond to you, or your pitch gets rejected, that doesn't mean that the idea is bad at all. It just means that it's not a fit for that publication. I think all of us, no matter how long we've been writers, or in this industry at all have at least a handful, or maybe even a bank of ideas that it's like, “Well, I don't have the right home for this yet. Or it's been rejected from five places, and I don't know where to put it yet.” All of that stuff will find a home. Maybe that home ends up being your blog, a self-published book, or something like that, but that doesn't make it lesser at all. Every idea, if you're passionate enough about it, will find a home. Because that's the story that you want to tell and you should tell it.

[0:53:14] YD: Oh, I love that. I love that so much, Lauren. That is so beautiful. I'm actually surprised that we haven't even touched on rejection up until now. Because what you make part of this process, like getting rejections. That's another thing that really stops a lot of people because they are – not only they are worried about the portfolio that they don't have, but they're also worried about getting a rejection. I always also say that it's such a normal part of this process, and there is nothing to be afraid of, because all it means is that at this time for this particular editor, for this particular publication, this idea is not a fit. The problem is that we often internalize it as, “Oh, you're no good, or your ideas are no good.”

[0:53:55] LK: Absolutely. I think, a lot of freelancing, or a lot of being a writer in any capacity is developing a slightly thicker skin. But I'm not going to lie. Anytime I get a rejection, it hurts. I have to mope about it for the best part of the day. Exactly. It's learning. It's not taking it personally.

The other part of that as well is and the phrasing that I always tell myself is that don't censor yourself. If you haven't sent the idea, you don't know how the editor is going to respond. You have no clue. Maybe they'll accept it within 10 minutes. Let them be the gatekeeper, because that is their job and their role. Don't censor yourself because you think something might happen. You have no idea what's going to happen. It could be your big break into the publication that you've always wanted, but you don't know, “Oh, it sounds so cliche.” You don't know unless you try. It's true. Don't censor yourself.

[0:54:47] YD: It's so true. It is so true. Oh, my God, you've already given us so many amazing wisdom today. I love it. Don't censor yourself, guys. I think I might take that one on and keep repeating that one, because we do. That's all these barriers that we have in our own head about what's going to happen, what's not going to happen. We stop short of actually doing something, and that's the most important thing we could do. Oh, my God. I love this.

[END OF EPISODE]

[0:55:11] YD: Thank you so, so much for listening to our show today. I hope you enjoyed this second part of our editor insights mini-series. If so, I want to ask you to please take less than a minute right now to support our show. You can do that by leaving us a rating, or review on the Apple podcast app, or by sharing this episode on social media, or maybe with another person who would benefit from it. It really helps us get discovered by more listeners just like you that would find our show helpful. It means so much to me.

I read every single review we get, and I take them very seriously because I want to create a great show for everyone. If you've been inspired by something you heard today, or in any other episode of our show, please take literally less than a minute to support it by leaving us a rating, or review. That is one of the best ways you can help us out. If anything that you heard today resonated particularly well, be sure to go and check out full episodes with each of these editors where they go even deeper into their path to where they are today. You can find the links to those episodes in the show notes. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.

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