S3 E32: Storytelling With Purpose with travel photographer Alex Reynolds

Get the show’s transcript

Alex: [00:00:00] This is a cool time. I'm leaning into it and doing my thing and I feel supported, and I hope that everyone listening to this also finds the circles and support them because your ideas are probably really freaking cool. And you should share them with the world 

Yulia: [00:00:13] Welcome to the genius women podcast.  I'm your host, Yulia, Dennis yuck and award winning travel photographer and writer  with work in some incredible publications like  national geographic  farm magazine and more.  And this year  you see my name in places like   Conde Nast traveler.  I'm on a mission to help other women who wants to grow their trouble, storytelling, careers, go after their dreams  while feeling supported, worthy, and bold. If you're ready to ditch your fear and doubts to the side,  step into your brilliance and take action on your dreams. You're in the right place. Let's go.

 Yulia2: [00:00:55] Alex Reynolds is a travel photographer writer and solo female backpacker. Who's been on the road since 2016.   You might have seen her work on Instagram, under the lost with purpose handle, where she tells stories about her troubles in Afghanistan. Kurgastan Pakistan, south India, animals.  I've been following Alex for what feels like many years now.

And I was thrilled to sit down with her recently to talk all things, travel,  blogging, making money while traveling what success looks like in this space,  empowering women. As well as our evolution, as travel stories, hours and concentrators, when it comes to our roles in perpetuating  colonialist, serotypes, that plague travel media,  we had a really great conversation that took us to many unexpected places.

 I hope you enjoy this episode. 

Yulia: [00:01:49] Welcome Alex to our podcast. I'm very excited to have you here on our show today,

 Alex: [00:01:55] Hi, Yulia. Thank you for having me 

 Yulia: [00:01:58] as I was telling you, before we  started recording. I've been admiring you from afar for several years now. It feels like so really excited that we now get to connect in person and talk about stuff.

  first of all, let's talk about the image that you've shared with me that is one of your favorites images that you've captured.  This image. When I look at it is so full of joy. and for our listeners, we're going to link to it in our show notes.  But tell us one thing you love about it the most and what is the story behind this image?

 Alex: [00:02:33] So I took this photo at the military gun and Lahore in Pakistan.  And the military gun is like,  a festival celebrating the death of a Sufi Saint, 

but it's kind of like a fusion of Islamic tradition and Hindu tradition because it said that a Sufi Saint in Islamic Sufi Saint and. Friend or maybe lover  were buried together at the shrine.

And so it's celebrating both of them. and so it's this massive, like three-day festival at the shrine and it actually used to be celebrated across other parts of the country or across other parts of before as well and Punjab, but it's kind of shrunk in recent years.  And so it's all concentrated at this little shrine on the outskirts of LA Hort.

And it's overwhelming at first because like many festivals in south Asia,  it's a lot of men, gathered together in very tight spaces. And there's some women during the day, not really any at night sometimes. And so as a woman to be navigating that space, it's kind of overwhelming. It can be intimidating and you can feel quite guarded a lot of the time, 

but the woman in the photo. Is, I mean maybe, or maybe isn't what people call my lungs.  They're kind of like wandering holy people. They kind of bounce between shrines, sometimes festivals and often play music or dance, or sometimes just ask for donations basically.  whether or not she was officially one, I don't know. Cause sometimes people just pretend for festivals, but regardless of what her official identification is  she was very welcoming.

Like she saw me alone woman in the crowd of men and was just like, we didn't share a language, but she just made eye contact. And she was smiling at me and invited me to come sit with her.  And even though we were surrounded by this huge wall of men, she like made sure that I could come through and she, and another one of the men sitting with her made space for me  and we didn't share a language.

I've learned some residue, which is one of the main languages of Pakistan. But not very much.  And she new some are do, but not very much. She spoke Punjabi. so we had like stilted conversations, but enough to really just like, kind of acknowledge, Hey, we're both women in this space.  It's a little uncomfortable, but also,  Hey, we're here.

Right? And it's already quite unusual be a woman in that space. And then for women to dance in public, like that is also extremely unusual.  And so to see that woman getting up in front of a crowd and like spinning and drawing attention to herself and just dancing and having that look of like content bliss on her face 

was really just it's another one.

 Sometimes it doesn't seem like something like that as possible in Pakistan,  but in that moment it was, and to just have that connection and see such a beautiful woman. At the center of it all and unafraid to just express herself like that and just lose herself in that moment was a privilege for me to be able to sit there and have that connection with her for the afternoon and the evening.

And so  I have a lot of photos from that moment, but the one that I shared with you is the one that really captures like her moment of just joy and contentedness and the smile on her face. And even though the festival itself can be quite like overwhelming and chaotic at times, just from how much stuff is happening all at once.

 When I look at her face, I feel the sense of like calm and it's like, everything else is kind of blanked out and I really just hone in on her and the joy that she's feeling. And so even now, when I look at that, I smile and also think of our really crappy stilted conversation, but it brings a joy. It brings a smile to my face every 

time. 

 Yulia: [00:06:13] That's a beautiful story and yeah, the bliss that you talked about, I really see it in her face. And then just in the whole image,  it's such a beautiful moment captured.  So you've traveled through Pakistan extensively, and we're going to get into that a little bit later, but tell us a while it's how you're navigating some of that.

Would, you know what you just said, like lots of spaces crowded with men where women are usually sort of not drawing attention to themselves  how did you navigate all of that as a solo traveler  in that space?

 Alex: [00:06:46] I've figured out how to do it with time. There's been a lot of trial and error. I mean, at first I had no idea what I was doing.  the first time I visited. I did have a boyfriend at the time. And so that helps too. Deflect some of the intimidation, but I mean, I left him at some point a few years back.

And so I had to learn to navigate these very patriarchal spaces on my own. And at first I was very like timid and kind of wary of other people. But then eventually I learned that no matter what I do, I'm going to get attention regardless.  So I might as well just go ahead and do it. 

and it's kind of complex in some ways, because as an outsider, I have a lot of privilege of being a foreign woman.

I am not held to the same kind of moral standards as much as local women would be. So if I break norms, people just kind of stare at me, sometimes tell me off, but generally I can get, just leave whereas local women con, but. Yeah. no matter what you do, someone is going to be offended. Someone is not going to really mind.

And so I decided to just go for it.  And as far as harassment goes, it does happen. I'm not going to lie. It happens quite often. I've had people grab me and follow me and harass me digitally because they managed to connect with me there. But I just am stubborn and refuse to let people intimidate me and stop me from traveling.

 I built up a bit of a steel wall after a few years. And so now it doesn't bother me as much.  The joy that I get from going out and just experiencing these things good and bad is much more significant than any of the distress that's caused me by being a strange outsider like that. 

Yulia: [00:08:28] Yes. Oh my gosh. I can relate to that so much. And you know, for me, and wonder if you feel the same way too.  I almost thrive is not the right word, but  I do well when I'm the outsider, meaning like, I don't know, like I'm so used to being the outsider that doesn't. It doesn't phase 

me. Does 

that make sense? 

Alex: [00:08:48] There's something liberating about it, just because you're so different. What do you have to lose? Like you are going to be strange regardless. And so you're in a kind of more interesting position because of it. Cause you can like kind of observe from the outside, but also if you have to, you can leave.

and just the standards, aren't quite the same for an outsider. So like you can kind of. Sometimes dictate what is and is Okay.

for you. That sounds a bit like controlling, but Yeah.

I don't know. I understand what you mean. Like I also just thrive from being put into challenging situations. I'm a little bit of a  dare devil is not the right word, but I definitely really enjoy it when everything goes wrong, 

Yulia: [00:09:30] Yeah. Although, you know what, this has just made me think about, this sort of path that we're walking down. Is that me thriving as an outsider is an example of my privilege, actually, because   if an outsider who is, let's say coming to the states or in Europe, They're probably not thriving in that situation.

Right. They're probably being very disadvantaged. and so, yeah, just  one more way in which the privilege of being a Western outsider shows up in the world.

 Alex: [00:09:59] That's very true because I mean, both of us are from the west. And so no matter what we do, we're still often perceived as being more untouchable or more powerful or just more in the right, regardless of what we do,  people are not going to be scrutinizing us. So as much as local people or people from less privileged countries.

And so it is definitely a kind of privilege 

just for us. Like you traveled a lot and Jordan and the middle east in general. And so I imagine you understand what it's like to go places where women may or may not go and just be like, I am the outsider and I can do whatever I want. Ha ha. So 

Yulia: [00:10:38] Yeah, for sure. Although there's also a duality in that because I actually come from the east thrive. I am originally,  I grew up in the east  I'm now in the west.  I have both feet in these two different worlds 

 Alex: [00:10:51] I think though, like having that kind of intersection of experience makes you a better observer and storyteller, or at least that's what I tell myself anyway. Um, but just being at that intersection of cultures and privileges and powers does make it more interesting because you can kind of straddle and better understand both sides of a picture. I have the same I'm from the west, but my mother is from the Philippines and my father is English. So I'm like colonizer and colonized. and so I have a little bit of both worlds and I think it makes you much more aware of these 

things because of it. 

Yulia: [00:11:28] I agree. Yeah. That's so well said. 

Yulia: [00:11:30]  so speaking of travel, you've been traveling since 2016 at least. And you've been to many destinations that an average traveler wouldn't necessarily go to like Afghanistan, kurgastan Pakistan.  tell us a little bit about how you got the travel bog and how you one day decided that this will be what you're going to do with your life.

 Alex: [00:11:52] So I traveled a lot when I was younger. my parents are just very  interested in travel. And so they were very good about doing what they could to help my brother. And I go places when we were younger.  my father was a professor, so we could sometimes go with him on his trips. If he was speaking somewhere like once a year, we'd go somewhere far away.

 And so that was kind of my upbringing. And as I got older,  I was like, yeah,

like, I really want to do this more. How do I do this more? I have no idea, but I like it. And no one in my life traveled very extensively. It's all like typical American. We go on vacation for two weeks and then we come back and ideally that's 

in the U S or to like canned food.  and so  in my university, I did a study abroad program and I was supposed to go to Russia because I was actually studying Russian as  a minor. 

 Didn't do that. I was like, I don't actually want to go to Russia. I want to go to Asia. Cause I've been there like a few times and it was pretty cool every country that I went to.

So I'm going to go there and then very simplistic impulsive me was like, Okay.

computer science, Asia. Cause that was my major. And I literally just Googled like computer science, Asia. That was too broad. So I was thinking  what food do I like Thai food  study abroad,  Thailand found a program, had no idea what I was getting into just like signed up.

And I ended up in Thailand.  was fine in the end, but it was nothing at all. Like what I expected.  it was actually one of the more prestigious schools in Thailand and all of the students were extremely wealthy. And so it was really intimidating. kids were driving like Porsche's and Ferrari's to school and I was just way out of my league,  so I ended up in Thailand. And I did a little bit of traveling while I was there and traveled more after the semester was done. And it was really there where I was first exposed to the idea of long-term travel. Cause I just, I had no idea that people traveled for more than two weeks at a time until I met all the Europeans traveling around and they're like, oh Yeah.

like how long are you going for?

Oh Yeah.

I'm traveling for like two years now, what you can do that I want to do.  and so I didn't do it right away. I fell in love with a boy and so I moved to the Netherlands to be with him after university. And he was very rational. he was like, Yeah.

you can travel, but like you need money and you need to plan this stuff.

And I said, Okay.

that makes sense. I will do that. and so three years down the line in the Netherlands, I had saved up enough money for what I thought would be a good. 

and I was in the process of doing the millennials, sell all your stuff and travel the world.  I didn't really know that was the thing at the time.

 And then while I was Googling like places for my trip, I learned about travel blogging around that time. And so then it was like, oh, okay. That's interesting. Like I could try that. I liked design and photography and I hate writing, but I can learn how to do that.

 and so I kind of decided that I would make a website where I would start filling in all the information that like I was not finding when researching my trip.

And so that turned out to be very useful for many people's surprise, surprise.  and so that's how I kind of got into covering more of these countries that are less traveled to, 

and that are lacking and like more information about how to travel.  I should add a disclaimer. I'm not traveling there for the blog.

I kind of go where I feel like it and then blog about it afterwards.  But obviously on my blog, I'm going to be covering a lot of countries. So less people are going to just because that's where the information need is. if I go to St Thailand's,  everyone said something about Thailand and I don't need to add too much more.

 and so I started doing that and because of the blog and some freelance work, I was doing my money. Didn't run out when I thought it would.  And so I was at the time I was just traveling over land because that's the cheapest and most of the way to travel and it just kind of happened. It wasn't that I was trying to go out and find like the most obscure countries ever.

It was just, I wanted to go somewhere that I didn't know much about. My then boyfriend and I started in Georgia and went to Iran and then Pakistan. And it was like really Iran and Pakistan where it was. I realized that one people giving you travel advice who have never been to a country really don't know,  and to travel and places that are supposedly off limits might be more possible than you'd think.

and so just all of central Asia and south Asia, I knew very little about and everything I was experiencing was very exciting and just peaked my curiosity no matter where I went. And so I just kind of hung around. I liked it. it was manageable to travel around it. Didn't break my bank account, which is very important.

 I um,

years later, literally years later,  I'm still traveling to those countries, still writing about those countries. It just kind of clicked. 

 Yulia: [00:16:49] Yeah. And I think what you said at the beginning there was really important is that you created something because you couldn't find that information online already. So I think that's important, right? When somebody's creating a project or something,  it's like understanding that there needs to be a need for that.

Right. If you were starting a blog on friends, for example, well, that's great. There's a lot of information on France. So what can you offer? That's going to be different from what's already out there. which is probably, yeah, one of the reasons why your blog to cough in a way that it did, but what would you say to someone who is planning on starting a blog today in 2021?

Right? The landscape is quite different   even from five years ago. So what would you tell somebody who is thinking about that?

 Alex: [00:17:35] One of the things that I always say to people is in this line, it's what do you have to offer that other people haven't done well already? So like,  you said, if you go to France, everything is covered in France. Everyone has been writing about France and every language for all of like internet existence and beyond internet existence.

But for example, like other countries may or may not have things that can be covered, they can be covered. They may not have everything covered online. 

And also there are different perspectives that you can cover something with. So like, up until this point, a lot of travelers that you and I and listeners to this I know are usually male, often old, always Western, and also white. And so If you're anything aside from that, you're already bringing an interesting perspective to the table. And then there's all the different kinds of like niches of travel that you can go into. Some people are interested in like specific kinds of accommodation, like seeking out more sustainable guest houses.

They're looking for more local experiences that people can engage with or like supporting more women oriented travel or businesses.  And so there's a lot of very specific things that people can tap into that others haven't written about already. And so I think finding things that have not been covered is very, very important.

And a lot of people don't think about that. They just jump in and they're like, okay, yes, I have top 10 places to visit in Bangkok. Let's go. And it's like, no one cares about that. Sorry, that's been done. It doesn't matter. But like, if you can tell me about 10 women owned cafes in Bangkok, that you can. That could be a thing.

And so just looking for that unique angle, I think is something that a lot of newer content creators overlook. 

Yulia: [00:19:25] Yeah, I love that. I love that advice, Alex. And that's   what I talk about when it comes to pitching your stories to magazines, right? It's that same idea that top 10 beaches in Thailand it's been done. Like nobody wants to see that for sure. But what is your unique perspective that you're bringing to that story?

 so in one of your posts on your site, you mentioned that travel blogging alone likely will not make your rich and granted out. I think that  post was from 2018 and perhaps things have changed, but what I would like to talk about this, some of those misconceptions of a rich travel blogger and.

The mystify, that whole process of making money while traveling and your post, which we're going to link to in the show notes outlines a lot of that very well.  I loved reading that post. but yeah, let's talk about that a little bit, because I think people often confuse also, you know, these 500,000 follower accounts on Instagram who are charging, I don't know, $10,000 a post and are staying in Maldives and all these luxury resorts that is not an experience of every single travel blogger or a content creator 

during the, this stuff. not all of them want that either. I 

Alex: [00:20:37] mean, I don't want that. And so. 

Yulia: [00:20:39] Very good point. Yeah. 

 Alex: [00:20:41] Yeah.

There's like this perception that if you succeed in travel blogging, you're just going to be eating  floating breakfasts and petting drafts, and just like lounging in swimwear on beaches all day.

Ideally the ball leaves.

and that could be the case for some people, but for most people, it isn't.  and my own experience, I struggled to make  a livable wage for the west with just blogging. part of that is me being impulsive and chasing a lot of different things in life. but part of that is also having fix, it actually causes problems in my business, 

because a lot of people make money.

Like bloggers make the majority of their money from marketing. That is essentially what a blogger is. You're a marketing service or a place or whatever, a product. and so. If you're willing to just go out and go on, press trip after press trip and sacrifice all of your independence and autonomy, then you probably can make a good living wage from being a blogger, but you are going to be basically shuttled from tour to tour a lot of the time.

And so some people like that, I personally don't and would rather just be poor, 

do that.  And also the same applies to marketing things or marketing more specific products or services. I personally am not super comfortable advertising constantly. if you look at the bloggers who are most successful, like financially speaking, they are advertising stuff constantly day in, day out by tease by swimwear, buy this plane ticket by or whatever.

And so there's very little. It doesn't feel as authentic. It doesn't feel as wholesome. And if it just feels very like plastic and commercial. And so if you're willing to do that and you find the benefits of that lifestyle outweigh the negatives of just becoming like a constant marketing funnel. that's fine.

You can do that. I would rather not. So I am not financially successful.  not to say that it's impossible. It's more, just a matter of your preference. You can also make money through advertising, which is a little bit less directly salesy. And then if you just have a lot of traffic from the west specifically you can make money through advertising and just having a lot of traffic to your blog or selling occasional posts on a really huge social media account.

 And just making sure that when you do sell a product, it's something you actually believe.  So it's not to say that it's impossible to make a lot of money. it's just very rare and might require more sacrifices or be less fun than you think it is. And so I've been lucky in that. I still have had cool opportunities come to me.

but for every interesting opportunity that I actually agree to, I probably turned down like hundreds more because just, I don't believe in the product.  I don't want to be a spokesperson for this kind of thing.  I don't want to post pictures of like watches or whatever it is, the people posting it. 

Yeah. 

this is not the way to make millions.

You could. It's unlikely. And there is much more efficient ways to make a lot of money in this. 

Yulia: [00:23:44] Yes. And   what I want to point attention to what you said earlier,  that's your approach?  might not be   the way to be financially successful, but I would actually like to even suggest that what is financial success, right. I think it goes back to what is important to you and what do you need to feel happy in your life?

 And for somebody it means,  making thousands, if not millions and,   being in the magazines all the time for someone, it means being independent, telling your stories, traveling all the time and being able to have  food and accommodations, place to sleep  that is already financial success in my book, you know, 

Alex: [00:24:26] Yeah. I mean, that's kind of my measurement also, I wasn't making a spectacular yeah. pre pandemic. It was enough to sustain my travels. I could travel and I wasn't watching my bank account decline constantly. So I had the freedom to go where I wanted in a lot of parts of the world.

I was exposed to a lot of cool things. I could pick opportunities if I jelled with them. And so I wasn't putting money into a savings account, but I'm also young. I'm not super concerned about it. And so I was happy, cool with making like  a thousand or 2000 a month, if even as long as I'm living the lifestyle that I want, because a lot of people just focus on making as much money as possible and then figuring out what they want.

Except I know that I like travel and I know,

that I would be spending the money on travel. So if I just make enough money to survive while traveling, then I already have what I want. The money is just a tool to get what I want. 

Yulia: [00:25:21] Exactly.   One of the things that I recommend too, is figure out how much you actually need every month.  And you might be surprised that like you said earlier, you know, this Western lifestyle that we have, it draws us into this never ending race, where we have to earn more and more and more to just to keep hop and, you know, the mortgage and all the expenses and the credit cards.

But at the end of the day, when you think about just food, you actually just need to be able to go on with your day. It's not that much. all of a sudden this lifestyle becomes much more feasible. Then you ever thought, you know,

Alex: [00:25:58] Yeah, exactly. You don't have to have a huge house in London somewhere. If that's not, what's going to bring you joy 

for some people. Yes. A lot of people not. So why bother working towards it? 

Yulia: [00:26:10] Love it, Alex.  So in that same post that we just touched you know, discussed a little bit at the end of that post, you said something like be patient because Rome wasn't built in a day. And I love that so much because I see that so often that, you know, people expect quick results and they get so discouraged when they don't see those quick instant results.

And what I want to really drive home through the podcast, through everything that I'm doing is that men takes really long time to build something and to start seeing the results of your even.

 Alex: [00:26:44] Yeah. A lot of people like, and blogging and influencing specifically, a lot of people jump in, they make a website and then they're like, okay.

when can I get the free hotel stays? And it's like, well, what value do you have to offer to other people? Nothing right now. So be patient  with my own blog. I think it was probably a year or two before I started actually making money through the blog.

I was just doing it because I cared about sharing information and I enjoyed it. And so, yeah, that's years of a lot, a lot of hours on the computer,  like writing and designing and coding and editing photos and just, that's a lot of time and not a lot of money, even now when I make more money from it, it's still a terrible balance between time in and money out.

 But that's okay if that's what it takes to get to the point that you're comfortable with. So be it. So, yeah, I mean, no matter where you look, anyone who's successful took time to get there. You might not see it, but it always takes time. Whether that be learning a skill when they were a kid or. Practicing behind the scenes, or if they're just like a really beautiful person who gets money from being a very beautiful person,  they probably still exercise like day in and day out and diet all the time to stay as like conventionally beautiful as they are.

So no matter where you look, if someone is succeeding, it takes time. 

Yulia: [00:28:03] Yeah, just the other day I posted a on Instagram.  My overnight success story was six years 

in the making, which is kind of that concept. Right. It takes time. 

Alex: [00:28:12]  Yeah.

And 

it just takes like a break. Right. there might've been like a pivotal point in your own career where finally someone noticed that you were doing something and then things started to get,

better. 

Um, and so I think a lot of people experienced that where like they're slaving for forever.

And then finally someone somehow sees something and then things pick up from there it usually happens if you're persistent  really dedicated to what you're doing and are really trying to learn and grow. I do think it will happen at some point for everyone. 

 Yulia: [00:28:44] Ah, I love that. You said that, Alex, I just love that you said that because that's exactly what I always say to everyone who comes to me with this question of like,  how do I start getting my stories published? How do I get on this path? I tell them, you do this. You pitch,  you keep doing this.

You keep approaching for vacations. You keep creating. Eventually it will happen. Like I have zero doubt in my head that eventually it will happen, but you have to be persistent. And that's what a lot of people are not willing to realize that the road.  It takes time and it takes persistency and commitment to get there. 

Alex: [00:29:20] yeah, I know exactly. I also pitched a lot more publications in the beginning for SEO purposes for my blog. And it was just so overwhelming to me to have to pitch all the time and I quickly got deterred by it. But now at this point, people come to me asking for articles. Actually, I haven't pitched anything in years and people still come to me with articles just because I was consistent and present and others basis as well.

So somehow it happens. 

Yulia: [00:29:48] yeah. No, absolutely. so  in your blog, that again, we're gonna link to it andfor our listeners, definitely go check it out. What I've also noticed is that there's been an evolution of how you. Even approach travel and your own understanding of  what it means to be a traveler in 2021, which was really cool to see, because I think that's something that a lot of us are going through that evolution.

and I've definitely also like if I look at some of my earlier work right now, I cringe sometimes I really said that, that 

sounds horrible. 

Alex: [00:30:27] Oh my God. That was me.  I hope no one sees this ever. You

guys. I know the Feeling well. 

Yulia: [00:30:34] but  it's cool to see that. And, you know, there's sort of one part of it, which is, about your own work and how, can see progress that you've made with your work, which is cool to see. But the other part of it is evolution in the way you think. which has been really amazing to see.

So talk to us a little bit about that. What does it look like for you now when you go to some of these places and think about how you impact those places as a traveler.

Alex: [00:31:01] Yeah.

So when I first started traveling, I was like, all of us. I think we go out, we're just amazed by everything. We don't really think so much. It's just like, okay, I see a thing. This is exciting onto the next thing. Um, and so I kept traveling and the more you see, the more you start to notice the little details.

and so it was really like entering south Asia with, like I said, I had a boyfriend, he was white, he was tall. He was like, nice blonde ish, European.  and so you start to think about it a little bit because you see how well he's treated. sometimes compared to me it was significantly better.  Um, and so you see this kind of discrepancy in how certain people are treated.

And so that got me thinking a little bit about just the privilege of being an outsider.  And so we carried on eventually we split  so I was traveling alone. And then, then I noticed a really significant difference in how people were interacting with me. people were much less forward and their hospitality they're much more suspicious. They're very critical sometimes. And so that's when I really started thinking about like race and travel and just how our appearance affects how people perceive us or assume that we are  okay. And so that got me thinking on the race aspect of it. And then sometime a few years into my traveling journey, I started being exposed to like concepts, like discussions about colonialism and Orientalism.

Um, there's one particular podcast, sacred footsteps, like hats off to them. They're the coolest. they brought me up in one of their podcasts.   They used me as a good example of how to do travel blogging. So I was not on the fire, but so they mentioned me in their podcast. And so I listened to that and that was, I kind of dived into their content and they talk about.

Orientalist representations of the east quite extensively in their work. And so that was my first exposure to that kind of discussion. And as I looked at it as like, wow, this is everywhere in travel media. Like, holy shit. 

Yulia: [00:33:11] once you see it, you cannot unsee it. 

Alex: [00:33:13] exactly like once you see it it's every year, but because we're kind of raised in certain societies where this is just normal or it's brushed under the table.

And because the places where we learn are so homogenous, we don't really think about it as much until we're like slapped in the face with it. And then you realize it's everywhere or at least hopefully you realize that it's quite pervasive.  And so that was really like a turning point, like because of them and kind of being brought into that conversation that I had, if I wasn't even aware it was happening  I started to read a lot more and just realized how problematic all of this is and how I am contributing to. Or it could be contributing to it with my own work. And it was around the same time. This is like a slight tangent, but around the same time I had published a blog about this.  It's a valley in Pakistan. Not so many people were going there at the time I went there, I wrote a blog about it. And then that summer it's so many people sending me selfies, being like, Hey, where are you because of your blog?

And that was when I really, oh, my gosh. People like, listen. A lot of people, people are listening. Hi, being held accountable for my words now, like I need to be, I'm more conscious about what I share if people are actually looking.  And so those two things happened? around the same time. And that really just motivated me to be much more critical about how I'm interacting with people when I'm traveling, how I represent people when I'm traveling and whether or not I should even be you writing about places in the first place.

and so. That's kind of been building over time and with the pandemic and just everything's stopping, like, you all know, we've all had a lot of time to sit  and reflect on our own lifestyle and our choices and just what the heck we're doing in this world.  And so a lot of that time for me has been dedicated to like reading more deeply about stuff.

I was otherwise not allocating enough time to, and really just like reflecting on all my password and looking at it with the new lens, like my more educated lens now.  And so in my own work, all kinds of awful things. And I saw it in other people's work  and the pandemic, and before, as I became a more established blogger, I was being exposed to more influencers just from like working with them and influencers, all kind of like congregate at some point or another.

 And I realized when I met some of these people, that there are a lot. That'll be nice. There are a lot of very insensitive influencers in this world and their ignorance. And that's one thing. Ignorance is manageable, but there are a lot of people who are very defensive about their ignorance and are really unwilling to listen to criticism and adjust and respond to it and learn from it.  people have millions of followers and they're like aggressively, sometimes promoting these negative harmful stereotypes of like this country is all just uncivilized people in slums. And this place, like all of Africa is just one safari. That's there just for like beautiful women to pose and safari Jeeps and talk about  local people, like their primitive animals. Yeah. It's scary actually. and the more you look into kind of colonial practices from a hundred years ago, or even now actually you see all the similarities and especially right now, the thing that I grappling with  is blogging inherently colonial.  cause if you think about it, The digital, like the internet as land, basically.

And so every country has its own claim to a certain part of the internet,  but as bloggers or photographers or like Instagrammers or whatever you tubers, like when we go in,  we make content about a place. And because some of us have a such powerful reach already. And because we're so established,  we are basically carving out our own little space regarding that country or that area and saying like, we are the experts, this is the thing.

And like, you must see it through our lens. And so I've started thinking about just like the way we represent ourselves on the internet as like digital colonialism. And now my hands are like totally tied. I've like canceled in my mind. 

 It's like, I don't know how to do this without contributing to these kinds of issues. And so that's something I'm still grappling with. Like whether I can continue doing things as I was before in any way, or if it would be better to just back off a less like problematic career. I don't have the answers now, but that's kind of  where my evolution has brought me to. and for anyone who's listening to this and is having a like, oh shit, can I do this moment?

Um, on the flip side, I think that travel media does need more people who are willing to have this critical reflection and respond to it, and really try to demonstrate how to be more responsible about writing or photography or whatever. because if every responsible person. Ultimately backs out because they just can't justify it anymore.

Then all that's left is all of these ignorant, irresponsible people  telling everyone to let go jump around and Dubai in a bikini and like go to the Maldives and just assume it's like all your beach resort or like go to countries and try to pay nothing.  So Yeah.

on the one hand, I'm not sure if it can be ethical, but on the other hand, I see the need for more ethics, even if it's imperfect. 

Yulia: [00:38:46] Yeah. Oh,  very critical and crucial conversation, Alex. And I love that we sort of,  our getting into this space because I've also exactly that same struggle that you're talking about. I've also thought about it a lot in the past few years, because every time I go on the media trip, I see all those horrible behaviors that my peers are engaging in.

And   now I'm more critical and more aware. But I'm like, I'm still in this industry and I'm still like you know, versus dissipating in it and sort of the way I'm where I'm  ending up with it, I think is for me personally, approaching places and stories and people with humility and not answering them as an expert ever.

That's one that I think is already placing you on the right path. Right. Because I think that's where it becomes problematic. Right. You're like,  I've been here for five or like three days even. And I'm an expert all the time um, And then sort of the way I see myself now is a medium, really a medium.

And thinking that when I go to some of these places, I want to partner with the people there  and even ask their permission. Like, for example, when I did the Bedouin story In Jordan, you know, I didn't just sort of roll into their community and said, Hey, here I am to take your pictures. You know,   it was years of building trust and me becoming part of their community.

And then when I had the idea to do this, I actually asked them, Hey, would you be interested, open to doing the story together? You know, sort of, I think that's sort of where I see my own work going into. but love what you said about if all the critically thinking people leave 

Who's going to stay and continue this conversation.

Right.

 Alex: [00:40:31] Exactly. Yeah.

Sometimes I just want to throw my phone and laptop out the window and just say, screw this. I'm going to go just like work on a farm somewhere and just leave this, but just there's. So you critical voices in the industry, like in all of the travel industry, there's not enough critical voices.

And so I agree, like kind of partnering with people and working to like share stories together or amplify people who are otherwise being overlooked, I think is where privileged outsiders can fit in. Like we have the privilege of connections and experience and network. We can give our privileges to other people and use them to support other people and better amplify them. 

the tricky part is just, it's easy to overdo that too.  It's easy to go in and be saviory. So finding the kind of balance is the trick.  so I think you and I are both just figuring out how we can navigate these spaces while doing what we love without actually harming other 

people. 

Yulia: [00:41:31] Yeah. 

but I, I have to say, Alex, not leave travel media cause 

Alex: [00:41:36] Uh, I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. Maybe. Yes, no. 

Yulia: [00:41:40] And you know what, we're just sort of to, direct our listeners to more resources about what Alex has shared with us. So the podcasts that you mentioned is called sacred food stacks and we're going to link to it and link to Alex's episode with . Sacred food stamps. So you can check it out.  I also want to link to another video, which I've came across several years ago, which is talking about it to Al-Jazeera video that Is using Edvard sites  writings on colonialism and Orientalism and putting it into like a very accessible video format.

Oh, it's a brilliant video to an Edward seed is a Palestinian author who wrote a lot about colonialism and Orientalism. so we'll link to that as well. It's again, it's one of those things that once you see it, you just, you cannot unsee it and you see it everywhere. And it's kind of shocking how widespread it is.

And lastly, Alex and several of her collaborators recently started this amazing account on Instagram called decolonizing travel. And they have done already, just some incredible coverage on some of these issues that we talked about. So we're going to link to that as well as, so you guys can go check it out.

Alex: [00:42:54] Yeah, it's a new baby account. So please by all means, check it out.

Follow us,  on things. If you're feeling particularly motivated or don't just follow us. 

Yulia: [00:43:03] Awesome. Awesome.  Goodness.   I keep saying this now, but  I feel like an hour conversation is not enough because I'm just not like, okay, I want to talk to you about so much more so many more things that that this conversation has opened. but before we sort of start wrapping up, but I wanted to ask you is tell us a little bit about some of the women that you've met on your travels that have inspired you, because we sort of touched on it a little bit in the beginning that, you know, a lot of your trouble is you've been doing as a solo, a solo traveler.

And in a lot of the places you go, you know, it's sort of a very. The same male,  white male dominated 

places.

 very patriarchical places. Yeah. So  tell us about some of the women that you've met that have inspired you.

 Alex: [00:43:51] Yeah, in terms of inspiring women, I've met in my travels a lot, like simultaneously a lot and not enough, I don't meet enough women in my travels period. but some people they come to mind, like the first woman would have to be my friend and business partner in Pakistan.

Her name is Anika  and despite its culture dictating the women don't travel alone or don't travel so much and just don't do things on their own period. she's traveled all over the country, both with friends and others. And she started her own travel company offering tours throughout Pakistan. And that's just not something that's done.

 Like Pakistan's hospitality industry is 3% female. And I don't know of any other like officially registered tour company run by a woman. So she's pretty bad ass. And yeah, we met while traveling and we decided to start running women's tours together in Pakistan and for our research.  We went up north to the mountains and we're just like, Okay.

we're just going to go to different places and see what's cool.

And then  I had a motorbike  just learned how the motor bike and a friend's company offered to loan me one for a bit. And I had never driven on mountain roads before I had never driven on like these little dirt roads by cliffs before four.  And I was like, Hey, Anika, it just drove us around. And she just trusted me, even though she thought we were going to die, 

she trusted me and just, we have had a lot of adventures together because of that.

And just, she is like a force to be reckoned with. And I really respect her a lot. So she's super inspiring to me and also has helped me grow as a traveler.  and then in terms of others, there's another woman. I met Eagle. She runs her own hostel chain of sorts in chopping out her and maybe Kericho and care Guston.

 And she is also a force to be reckoned with. She is a business mastermind and very motivated and very energetic also. And she's just very proactive in Kyrgyzstan's tourism scene. And whenever I'm talking to her, I feel like anything is possible.  And so I really respect just her drive in general a lot. and there's in terms of just like travelers.

there's one woman. I know I've met her briefly a few times, but I've just been creeping on her other ones.  her name is Marsha  and she's  from Hong Kong,   but has spent time in Australia and the UK. And she came from a kind of abusive background. And so she left home when she was quite young and she didn't go to university.

She just hit the road and she has been fricking everywhere.  She's like rented donkeys and the walk-on corridor and cycled around multiple countries by herself and hitchhiked all over the place and just been all over the world, despite not having  the best upbringing. And despite like the racism that she faces as an Asian woman and just, she's like not a particularly tall intimidating woman.

So to see like a short east Asian girl going around and   not giving a damn about  what happens and just going ahead with things anyway, it was just super inspiring. It's really fun to meet people. 

Yulia: [00:47:07] Yeah, 

I love it. Yeah. You meet a lot of cool people I could go on, but those are three who come to mind. 

 I love that Alex. And you know, for me personally, too, I've come to a point in my life where I'm like, I want to surround myself with amazing women  and that even like, I want to surround myself, but it's like there's so many amazing women that inspire me  and I want them in my life because I think it's so important, you know?

Yeah. gives us, I don't know, like you said, it's like we see they expand our horizon on what's possible.   which is incredible.  And the company that you mentioned the women's only tourists to Pakistan. It's a Matt Hatter tourist. Right? 

Alex: [00:47:48] Yeah, we do. Like  we join forces to do women's tours twice a year, but an eco like has her own company, the mad hatters doing trips 

and anytime, 

 Yulia: [00:47:58] Awesome. So for our listeners, if Pakistan is one of the  places you want to learn more about, then  definitely check out Alex's tours. We'll link to it in the show notes as well to Pakistan.   I would go with you in a heartbeat, Alex, that 

sounds to me, 

Alex: [00:48:15] It

would be fun.

Yulia: [00:48:15]  

So again,  I feel like we need to talk more because 

Alex: [00:48:20] Need infinite time, but we don't have it. 

Yulia: [00:48:23] we only scratched the surface. Yes. as the world or some places in the world are cautiously getting back out there or in some cases, not very cautiously.   what are you excited about working on now?

With your blog or any other projects. I know you said you're sort of grappling with a lot of the things that we discussed,  but share with us something that you're excited about right now.

 Alex: [00:48:46] So I am very tentatively thinking about traveling outside of Europe soon. last year before the pandemic and then the pandemic started but myself and the Nika and two Pakistani women, two more Pakistani. Came together  and formed an organization called root network. And we're trying to address some of the issues with irresponsible tourism in Pakistan.

 And so last year we just did like a COVID safety training project working with hotel owners and tour guides and people in the mountains of Pakistan. And soon we're going to be starting a research trip and like research and community outreach and preparation for, or a women's tourism project.  And the first step of that is we're going to be training Pakistani women as tour guides in different parts of the country.

And so possibly in a few weeks, I might be getting on a plane to go to Pakistan and go there and like documents our research trip and reach out to like women in the communities and like their communities to kind of discuss the possibilities of having this training and to just kinda. Make people more open to the idea of women actually going out and doing it.

We work sometimes, far away from home. So I really excited about that if a little bit nervous because yeah, the pandemic is still a thing,  I am vaccinated, so it helps. 

Yulia: [00:50:09] Yeah, definitely. That  sounds like an awesome project. And we'll look out for it on your Instagram stories, cause I'm sure you'll be sharing about it. 

 Amazing. so I want to close our conversation with a question that is a bit of a big question. and it's the one that I always close with, but how would you start thinking about what it means to be a woman who is stepping into her brilliance  in 2021?

 Alex: [00:50:41] I think that now is a spectacular time to be a woman embracing whatever it is that drives you and gets you up in the morning and just makes you smile. now more than ever before, there's more women in the workplace, more women doing all kinds of things from like running their own kitchens as chefs to traveling the world like we do, we're writing your own books or lectures, whatever.

there's more women now than ever before in the workplace. And there's more awareness about the need for more women and more diversity beyond gender.  And just this as polarized as the world can be. Sometimes. Now  this is one of the best times to be a woman going out into the world and pursuing her dream.

Conventional or not. And so it's really exciting to be alive in this time and just know that no matter how crazy my ideas are,  it's easier than ever to find women who can agree with it and who will support you and who would be interested maybe in coming along. And so  just having access to all of these resources now in differing viewpoints and just support networks that are blossoming up for women in the workplace is super freaking cool.

 So yeah, I think this is a great time in short, in summary. This is a cool time. I'm leaning into it and doing my thing and I feel supported, and I hope that everyone listening to this also finds the circles and support them because your ideas are probably really freaking cool. And you should share them with the world 

 Yulia: [00:52:15] Alex, I love it. I love it. It's exactly the message I bring into the world. I love it so 

much. 

Alex: [00:52:22] were along with him. 

Yulia: [00:52:24] We're going to close right here, cause this is 

beautiful. Thank you so much, Alex. I 

really appreciate your time today. And I enjoyed our conversation so much.

Alex: [00:52:33] It's always a pleasure to talk to other motivated women. So Thank you. for having me.

 Yulia2: [00:52:39] Thank you so much there listeners for sharing an hour of your day with us today. I hope you enjoy the conversation I had with Alex. And if so,  please consider leaving us a review so that more listeners could find.  I can't stress how important it is for us to get reviews of our podcasts. It really helps us to get in front of more people  who might enjoy our show.

 So if you've been inspired by something you heard today, or in any other episode of our show,  please consider leaving us your review. That is one of the best ways you can support our podcast.  Thanks again so much. I'll see you next week for a very special episode. That is also an experiment  that I can't wait to share with.